Thoughts on the Game8 JP Tier List 7/31/15

Leads

Changes from 7/24: Juggler S→A+, Light Anubis removed, Typhon added to A+
S 2012 - Awoken Ra2011 - Awoken Bastet1955 - Awoken Lakshmi1954 - Awoken Shiva2030 - Cloud & ハーディ=デイトナ2253 - 破壊神, Shiva Dragon
A+ 1747 - Sparkling Goddess of Secrets, Kali1937 - 最強戦士・超ベジット1901 - 最強装備, Juggler2230 - 気狂いピエロ, Kite2226 - 制約と誓約, Gon Freecss2013 - Awoken Anubis1949 - Lightning Black Dragonbound, Typhon1951 - Tome-Creating White Phantom Demon, Ilm1847 - 黒天の幻龍王・Zaerog∞1947 - Lightning Red Dragonbound, Gadius
A 1736 - Wailing Bleak Night Goddess, Pandora1956 - Awoken Parvati1953 - Enraged Black Phantom Demon, Zuoh1664 - God of Dark Riches, Osiris1674 - Norn of the Future, Skuld2227 - 神速, Killua Zoldyck1645 - Marvelous Red Dragon Caller, Sonia1371 - Crazed King of Purgatory, Beelzebub1666 - Sacred Life Goddess, Hathor2009 - Awoken Horus1760 - Dawning Dragon Caller, Sonia Gran2080 - 知徳の麗女神, Sarasvati

Subs

Changes from 7/24: Dark Izanami A→A+, Ares debuts at A+, Haku added to A, Gadius A+→A, Zuoh A+→A, Kaede A+→A, Perseus A+→A, Leilan removed, Thief removed, Time Mage removed, Apollo debuts at A, Ishida debuts at A, Akechi debuts at A, Susano removed
S 1726 - Awoken Hinokagutsuchi1743 - Restrained Dragon Hero, Liu Bei859 - ドスバギィ&バギィネコ2078 - 劫火の威女神, Kali1747 - Sparkling Goddess of Secrets, Kali1738 - 覇征の龍武王, Cao Cao
A+ 2010 - Awoken Isis1557 - Dancing Flame, Amaterasu Ohkami1561 - 超サイヤ人第三段階・トランクス1926 - Heaven-Shaking Thunderdragon, Indra2180 - 平定の黄泉神, Izanami2148 - 早天の日龍喚士, Kanna2235 - 復仇の戦軍神, Ares1733 - Blue Chain Starsea Goddess, Andromeda1736 - Wailing Bleak Night Goddess, Pandora1373 - Genius Sleeping Dragon, Zhuge Liang1670 - Norn of the Past, Urd1674 - Norn of the Future, Skuld1672 - Norn of the Present, Verdandi
A 2076 - Awoken Haku1947 - Lightning Red Dragonbound, Gadius1953 - Enraged Black Phantom Demon, Zuoh2146 - 金風の碧龍喚士, Kaede1734 - Green Star Vanquishing Deity, Perseus2081 - Divine Creator of Order, Vishnu2075 - Awoken Meimei2238 - 渾天の光明神, Apollo2269 - 克明の諜報神, Ishida Mitsunari2273 - 深慮の謀略神, Akechi Mitsuhide2094 - Phoenix Rider Valen1887 - 幸七羽毛・ヘッドロココ1741 - Soaring Dragon General, Sun Quan

The Game8 list.

Well, that’s quite the list of changes. Some, if not most, were expected or at least understandable, but let’s try to understand the logic behind all of them.

How the Mighty Have Fallen

1901 - 最強装備, Juggler
I once thought this little fucker was going to kill the game. Suffice to say, I feel quite stupid about it. I still think GungHo screwed up by shocking the user base as they did with this level of power creep, but one thing it did do was make us accustomed to leaps in power. I mean, they released Shiva Dragon and I didn’t even bat an eye. Good job, GungHo.

Ares Debuts as an A+ Sub, Apollo at A

2235 - 復仇の戦軍神, Ares2238 - 渾天の光明神, Apollo
Of all the changes, Ares debuting at A+ is the most surprising for me. The triple rows are obviously sexy, but the only elite lead they work well with is Shiva Dragon. I guess that’s good enough? He’ll definitely fit well on Kiriko teams, though, perhaps filling a similar role as Liu Bei does with Verdandi (speaking of which, where’s that Kiriko uevo…).

Apollo at A is a similar mystery, except he doesn’t even have a lead like Shiva Dragon to sub for. He fits well on teams like Sakuya, Thor, Ariel, and Amaterasu, but the only lead that’s even close to usable is Sakuya. I feel like I’m missing something; can someone enlighten me if I am?

Akechi Mitsuhide Doing Work

2273 - 深慮の謀略神, Akechi Mitsuhide1949 - Lightning Black Dragonbound, Typhon2076 - Awoken Haku1645 - Marvelous Red Dragon Caller, Sonia1371 - Crazed King of Purgatory, Beelzebub
Akechi’s active skill was tailor made to interact favorably with high-profile dark monsters. When following up a Typhon board change you get a half dark, half heart board. This is no doubt why Typhon has become an A+ leader as he finally has a sub that interacts favorably.

Akechi does a lot of work for Beelzebub teams. He turns a Haku board into 2/3 dark and 1/3 hearts, allowing Beelzebub to attack and heal at the same time. He can also take a fire-heavy RSonia board and turn it into an full enhanced dark board. He slots in nicely to the team in place of a Pandora, the only downside being the lack of RCV. Akechi isn’t quite good enough to propel Beelzebub to the top of the leader list, but if the Sengoku pantheon is a portent of future row support things should only get better.

But Why is Ishida Mitsunari Also an A Sub?

2269 - 克明の諜報神, Ishida Mitsunari
Ishida’s Norn-like board change with a two-turn haste is quite sexy, but I don’t particularly understand why he’s an A sub along with Akechi. He doesn’t have as many favorable interactions as Akechi nor are his rows particularly relevant in the now heavy-TPA wood element. Can anyone enlighten me why he might be here?

Thanks to A.Pham for pointing this out: Apparently he’s here as a Gon-san sub, which makes perfect sense! Gon is a beast and Ishida is a key sub in making him viable as a row leader. The sad reality is that NA will likely never get Gon, but hopefully GungHo has another wood row leader of similar caliber in the works. Wood is just such a dominant TPA element that I’m having a hard time accepting that it could be good with rows too, but I’m not opposed to having TPAs share the spotlight. It should be interesting to see what GungHo does in the future.

Awoken Haku Finally getting Respect

2076 - Awoken Haku
I thought Awoken Haku deserved a spot on the sub list for a long time. I don’t think she’s better than Meimei, so I think the spot at A is correct.

Yandere Love

2180 - 平定の黄泉神, Izanami
Considering Izanami has always been a staple sub on elite dark teams, this upgrade comes as no surprise. The actual surprise is that she wasn’t on this list since its inception, only being added with her uevo.

Wood Downgrades

2146 - 金風の碧龍喚士, Kaede1734 - Green Star Vanquishing Deity, Perseus
I’m a bit sad Kaede has been bumped down, but it’s understandable since she isn’t any better than the other wood subs at A. That’s not going to stop me from pouring a fortune into the REM to (try to) get her the day she comes out, though.

Perseus, on the other hand, doesn’t even deserve to be on the list anymore, barring the reemergence of of wood rows. His skill bind resists and skill boosts combined with his orb change are still a very potent package, but considering the number of other quality wood subs with skill bind resists, I don’t see him as essential anymore.

Gadius and Zuoh Downgrades

1947 - Lightning Red Dragonbound, Gadius1953 - Enraged Black Phantom Demon, Zuoh
Yet another set of downgrades that I totally agree with. Gadius is a fine leader, but his lack of skill boosts really limits his usefulness as a sub. I also have a hard time believing Zuoh is any better than Haku, so I feel much better now that they are at the same grade.

Removals

1001 - Deathly Hell Deity Jackal, Anubis2073 - Awoken Leilan1902 - 究極装備 Thief1903 - 究極装備, Time Mage1556 - Demon Slayer, Susano no Mikoto
I’m beginning to think Game8 just doesn’t log removals. All of this round’s removals make some amount of sense to me, though. Light Anubis’s inclusion in particular was always very questionable.

I actually really respected their inclusion of Susano as it reflected the power of damage reduction shields, but it makes sense that he’s knocked off the list since the cooldown is abhorrently long. I’m quite hopeful he’ll reappear once he gets his awoken form, though.

Someone brought up that the Game8 site has a more extensive list of grades, pointing out that many of the monsters removed from this list are still ranked highly on the other list. I don’t know what the criteria is for those grades, but they are separate from this particular list which is mainly focused on endgame viability and consistency. I’m also more interested in the changes, additions and relative grades than the actual grades themselves, so I’m going to limit the discussion to this list.

Still No Scarlet

2206 - 闊達の灼冥魔, Scarlet
Yup.


Did I miss something? Please leave a comment and let me know!

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17 thoughts on “Thoughts on the Game8 JP Tier List 7/31/15

  1. Hey! It’s just a small typo, but I know you like to fix tiny errors. The sub list changes say “Haku added to A+” but she appears as A, and your analysis repeats her A status. I think you added a + on accident. As for why Ishida is ranked higher than expected, I have a feeling it has something to do with the Gon team which is A+ rank as a leader. The attacker subtype fits the bill for Gon’s Physical and Attacker unconditional boost. Plus, Ishida uses rows rather than TPA. The majority of wood leads is TPA heavy, but Gon actually sports 2 rows rather than TPA. I’m guessing Ishida is made for Gon rather than Bastet/Verd/Parvati

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    • Cool, thanks for pointing that out. I’ll get on fixing it.

      As for Ishida… I’m embarrassed that I didn’t notice that. I even remember explicitly going to Game8’s team page for Ishida, seeing Gon as a leader for him, then thinking nothing of it. Maybe I was in denial of the stark reality that NA is unlikely to ever get Gon. Sad. I will add a note to that section about this too. Thanks!

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      • I’m sad NA is not getting a lot of things, mainly the FF Colabs since that was my childhood. I made a Jap account just to roll for that collab too haha. Still interested in Apollo and I’m kinda stumped as you said, but his active does work wonders for Sakuya. My only other guess is because he’s an Attacker light orb changer with 2 TPA. There aren’t many light orb changers with 2 TPA and the Attacker type might work on a Cloud?? But then that would diminish the system power of Cloud sooooo that theory is iffy at best. If anything, it’s cause he’s so flexible with 2 TPA and 2 Rows. Maybe? Watch he falls off next list and we’re sitting here still speculating 🙂

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        • I feel you about FF. I’m still optimistic that we may someday get it even if that optimism may be misplaced.

          I think Apollo’s typing and flexibility does help him quite a bit. I’m definitely curious of the impact he’ll make on JP.

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  2. If you are unaware, more monsters are ranked A+ and A than appear on the list (I believe all of the S ranks are shown because there are so few). There are links to complete lists for each element sorted by rarity below the list of featured subs. Don’t know what the criteria is for appearing on these more prominent charts though.

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    • “Someone brought up that the Game8 site has a more extensive list of grades, pointing out that many of the monsters removed from this list are still ranked highly on the other list. I don’t know what the criteria is for those grades, but they are separate from this particular list which is mainly focused on endgame viability and consistency. I’m also more interested in the changes, additions and relative grades than the actual grades themselves, so I’m going to limit the discussion to this list.”

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  3. Wow, lot of action here. Gonna leave a few of my own thoughts.

    “I once thought this little fucker was going to kill the game.”

    Haha, I had a similar reaction. Same with Shiva dragon. All it takes is for a dozen super whales to quit for a game to stop turning a profit, piss off the wrong people and the game’s done. Of course, after initial panic calmed, and people started actually analyzing them did we realize that they only worked with very narrow scope of subs, limiting their overall potential. Although, it makes me wonder, why downgrade Joker NOW? ESPECIALLY with larger boards now a thing, 2 sets of hearts is easier than before to achieve, without using an active every turn. He can still reliably kill everything in the game, right? Is it just that tankier teams have better survivability? More versatility? IMO he should still be an S tier leader until there’s a fair chunk of content he struggles with, or outright CANNOT clear.

    “Ares debuting at A+ is the most surprising for me.”

    Me as well, but here’s hoping the new ult misato’s LS is fire and not just attacker…

    “Apollo at A is a similar mystery, except he doesn’t even have a lead like Shiva Dragon to sub for.”

    Kanna maybe? IDK. He’s looking solid for sure, but I agree that A is iffy at best. Time will tell I suppose.

    Other than that, I agree with your assessments completely. I’ll end with a question: What do you think it took for Juggler to fall from S, and what do you think it will take for other leaders to fall from S?

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    • Yeah, I thought about Apollo on Kanna, but Game8’s own site doesn’t have Apollo as a Kanna sub on Kanna’s leader page nor on Apollo’s sub page. I’ll be keeping a tab on him, though, out of curiosity.

      From the whispers I’ve heard out of Japan, Juggler has simply fallen out of favor. I’d like to think that popularity wouldn’t affect a list like this, but who knows how it’s run. That’s always a problem with relying on lists like this for adopting opinions as they can’t always be relied upon to be objective, or at least true to the criteria they’ve already laid out. I still enjoy analyzing the list, though, and think there’s still a lot of knowledge to be gleaned from the changes made to it and by reasoning why my own opinions differ with theirs. I mean, I just said I’d keep an eye on Apollo, but I otherwise would’ve ignored him if he didn’t appear on this list.

      If I had to give an actual reason why Juggler fell, it would likely be due to Typhon’s appearance on the list. Typhon’s 42.25x isn’t far from 49x and being able to scale between 3 and 6 hearts makes him more consistent. Juggler’s multiplier just doesn’t stand out as much anymore.

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  4. Hey Setsu,

    If you don’t mind I’d appreciate some advice. I’m torn on what direction to go in, would you say it’s best to focus on +Egg/Pii farming team as a priority to get rank and eggs for building future teams or should I go with a team that can tackle the hardest content as a priority? is KoG really the best place to grind out rank ?

    I’ve got some eggs saved from the 3x normal event but I’m hesitant to use them as I feel I’ve made a mess of my +Egg use in the past.. If you don’t mind taking a look at my box and telling me what team you think I should hypermax first ? And guidance in general on what I should focus on would be appreciated I’m way too ADD with my team building. Here is a link to my PADherder https://www.padherder.com/user/Akilum/

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    • That’s a pretty impressive box. I’m particularly jealous of your ROdins…

      It looks like you have the ideal subs for all of the awoken gods we’ve gotten so far — the Egyptian and Indian ones in particular — so it’s hard to go wrong in choosing one of those. Choosing one really just comes down to the one or the element you like the most. This may not be the answer you were looking for, but with your box it really just comes down to preference. However, if it was up to me I’d say fire or wood since they both have good teams for the endgame and farming.

      Once you pick your lead/element, what you do really depends on how much money you’re willing to spend. If you don’t plan on spending much, I’d recommend focusing on skill ups then running alt. normals for Pys whenever you have downtime. If you can splurge, you’ll basically do the same thing except at a faster rate. When farming Pys, you can speedfarm alt. techs with a Goemon/ROdin team. You’ll also have the luxury of stoning for +eggs during 3x normals and Star Vaults. You should focus your eggs on your endgame team lead first, then its subs.

      I don’t think KoG is what you want to be doing. You are close to having enough team cost for almost any team and farming for rank is a poor use of stamina. You should also only farm for Pys when you actually need the Pys. Just let the ranks come naturally.

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  5. Skilling things up is part of the trouble, I have terrible luck with skill ups. Would the Goemon/ROdin team need any +Eggs or is it good to go by default just skills/awakening? I played RSonia primarily, because my experience with DMeta was I imagine quite similar to yours with Zhuge Liang. I have definitely hit the limit of what Ronia can do outside pairing with Beelzebub lead/making a Beelzebub lead myself to pair with all the Ronia friends.

    I was inspired to start work on the Verdandi team because of you, Which ended up resulting in me leveling a fair bit of the wood cards in my box. But not having skills maxed or leveled at all, hurts naturally. Which is where my interest in plus egg farming and pii’s is coming from. Do you think Arena is going to be worth ‘grinding’ out for PIi’s ? And if you had any lead/team to pick for it, what would you go with to clear Arena ?

    Thanks for your reply, I really do appreciate your input. I think of you as a PAD Guru, so I hope you don’t mind my questions.

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    • You just have to grind out the skill ups. It’s rough, but it’s the most important part of the game. Pys should be reserved for monsters without skill up fodder. It can take anywhere from 2-3k stamina per Py, making skill ups from fodder much more efficient, even the ones that require evo. I don’t think the Ultimate Arena is a good alternative for farming Pys since it’s a random drop. If I had to pick a lead it would be Awoken Anubis, after that maybe Awoken Ra with Kanna.

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