Thoughts on the Game8 JP Tier List 9/1/15

Leads

Changes from 8/28: Ra Dragon debuts at S, Lakshmi S→A+, wall added between Ra Dragon + Awoken Anubis and the rest of the rabble
S 2259 - 太陽神, Ra Dragon2013 - Awoken Anubis || 2253 - 破壊神, Shiva Dragon2325 - Awoken Yomi2012 - Awoken Ra2011 - Awoken Bastet1847 - 黒天の幻龍王・Zaerog∞
A+ 1954 - Awoken Shiva1747 - Sparkling Goddess of Secrets, Kali1937 - 最強戦士・超ベジット1901 - 最強装備, Juggler2230 - 気狂いピエロ, Kite1955 - Awoken Lakshmi2030 - Cloud & ハーディ=デイトナ2255 - 海王神, Neptune Dragon2226 - 制約と誓約, Gon Freecss1949 - Lightning Black Dragonbound, Typhon1951 - Tome-Creating White Phantom Demon, Ilm
A 2324 - Awoken Amaterasu Ohkami1947 - Lightning Red Dragonbound, Gadius1736 - Wailing Bleak Night Goddess, Pandora2292 - 冥夜の令嬢, Pandora1953 - Enraged Black Phantom Demon, Zuoh1664 - God of Dark Riches, Osiris1674 - Norn of the Future, Skuld2227 - 神速, Killua Zoldyck1645 - Marvelous Red Dragon Caller, Sonia1371 - Crazed King of Purgatory, Beelzebub1666 - Sacred Life Goddess, Hathor2009 - Awoken Horus2080 - 知徳の麗女神, Sarasvati

Subs

Changes from 8/28: None
S 2078 - 劫火の威女神, Kali1747 - Sparkling Goddess of Secrets, Kali1743 - Restrained Dragon Hero, Liu Bei2180 - 平定の黄泉神, Izanami859 - ドスバギィ&バギィネコ1738 - 覇征の龍武王, Cao Cao
A+ 1726 - Awoken Hinokagutsuchi2290 - 雪白の美姫, Valkyrie Claire1785 - warrior rose, graceful valkyrie2010 - Awoken Isis1557 - Dancing Flame, Amaterasu Ohkami1561 - 超サイヤ人第三段階・トランクス1926 - Heaven-Shaking Thunderdragon, Indra2148 - 早天の日龍喚士, Kanna2235 - 復仇の戦軍神, Ares2236 - 還魂の商業神, Hermes2237 - 月華の狩猟神, Artemis2292 - 冥夜の令嬢, Pandora1733 - Blue Chain Starsea Goddess, Andromeda1736 - Wailing Bleak Night Goddess, Pandora2289 - 楽園の時女神, Urd1670 - Norn of the Past, Urd1674 - Norn of the Future, Skuld1672 - Norn of the Present, Verdandi
A 2076 - Awoken Haku1947 - Lightning Red Dragonbound, Gadius1953 - Enraged Black Phantom Demon, Zuoh2146 - 金風の碧龍喚士, Kaede1734 - Green Star Vanquishing Deity, Perseus2081 - Divine Creator of Order, Vishnu2075 - Awoken Meimei2238 - 渾天の光明神, Apollo2269 - 克明の諜報神, Ishida Mitsunari2273 - 深慮の謀略神, Akechi Mitsuhide1373 - Genius Sleeping Dragon, Zhuge Liang2094 - Phoenix Rider Valen1887 - 幸七羽毛・ヘッドロココ1741 - Soaring Dragon General, Sun Quan

The Game8 list.

This was a small update so I’ll fill out the post talking about what I perceive are snubs on the sub list.

Ra Dragon and the S Rank Wall

2259 - 太陽神, Ra Dragon
I don’t think it’s much surprise that Ra Dragon debuted at S rank. What’s surprising is that it’s considered so good that it and Anubis now occupy a space above all the other S-rankers, indicated by a “wall” in Game8’s ranking table (I guess they didn’t want to make a new S+ or SS rank?) I mean, I guess it makes sense since he’s one of the most consistent Kaliseum clears, but that and a few edge cases is all he has over Awoken Ra. I guess instead of power creep coming through awoken uevos, we’re going to get the bulk of it through the MP Shop.

Lakshmi Booted to A+ Leads

1955 - Awoken Lakshmi
As for reasons why she was booted, I can’t think of anything reasonable besides the list maker wanting to keep S tier as exclusive as possible. I’m lead to believe this since most additions to S tier have been accompanied by a removal. All that means to me is that all the tiers need to be revamped. Establish Ra Dragon and Anubis as the new S rank, then distribute the rest between A+ and A, cutting those that need to be cut. I don’t have a problem with Lakshmi not being in the top tier, but are she and Shiva really all that much worse than the rest of the S tier?

Sub Snubs

While I have a few small qualms with it, I think the leader list is generally acceptable. The sub list, however, needs some serious work. I’m going to go over the three snubs I feel most strongly about.

2076 - Awoken Haku
I see no reason why Haku isn’t an S tier sub, let alone A+. She’s a great or ideal sub for three S tier leaders on their own list for god’s sake! Compare this to Cao Cao who has zero or Liu Bei who only has one. Heck, even Baggi doesn’t have any anymore. I can suffer Meimei only being A tier, but Haku has no explanation. Although I’d love to hear their reasoning behind it.

2150 - Ominous Moon Dragon Caller, Satsuki
Satsuki should make this list for many of the same reasons as Haku. Her triple prongs are absurdly strong and haste and dragon typing complement Infinirog teams so well. Her interaction with Haku’s board change is only the icing on the cake. I guess that makes breaking poison orbs the decoration?

2323 - Awoken Susano no Mikoto
I felt that the initial Game8 lists gave so much respect to damage shields, perhaps more than they deserved. Fast forward to today and I’m confused why DIzanami and Baggi are S tier yet Susano isn’t even on the list. The only things to complain about are not having attacker type and his relatively low ATK, but he fills roles on wood teams that were critically needed: high HP and a quality damage shield. I can’t wait for him to hit NA; he’s an instant hypermax for me.


Did I miss something? Please leave a comment and let me know!

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24 thoughts on “Thoughts on the Game8 JP Tier List 9/1/15

  1. I think the list is slowly unraveling. I don’t mind former S tier cards being bumped down, that is how powercreep works after all, but only when there is actually a reason for it. Shiva, in my opinion, was probably the weakest of the S tier leaders. (I mean no offense to any shiva users, that’s just how I see it. I main Lakshmi, and she’s no longer S, so let’s cry together.) So when Shiva Dragon came along, a stronger lead than the regular shiva, it made sense (to me) that he got demoted. But Lakshmi, Lakshmi’s only gotten stronger recently… With the advent of the bigger boards, Lakshmi’s orb changers became even more potent, and more blue orbs+more damage. Not to mention Hermes’ triple rows benefitting her even more… And to boot, no one even replaced her. Now, I would still argue that Neptune Dragon is a better leader than Lakshmi, had he been revealed as S tier, I would reluctantly accept it, but neither of them are S tier, despite both clearing all content except for arena with relative ease, and clearing arena without too much difficulty. IDK. I really don’t K.

    Personally, I feel that the list needs to be re-worked into more tiers. I think there needs to be S+, S, S-, A+,A,A-,B+,B,B-. The three S tiers would be Anubis and Ragon at S+, The current S at S, Lakshmi and Shiva at S-. After that, I would say the current A+ and A would need some reworking between the three A’s, but that’s more thought than I care to give RN. The three Bs would be leads that deserve recognition, and currently aren’t included, but aren’t necessarily the best for endgame; like Krishna and verdandi.

    The subs list is just whack. I can’t even save that list…

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    • I can’t argue with the state of the lists, I agree with everything you said.

      I do think the leader list is salvageable — your suggestion would be a good first step — but I think trying to rank subs is pretty much an exercise in futility. Which is reflected in the state of disarray the list is in. It would probably suffice to just remove the sub list entirely and just say “hey, check out what we think are ideal subs for each leader on our leader list”. No matter how powerful a sub is, it doesn’t matter if they don’t have a good leader to sub for.

      Despite the problems, I still find it interesting to analyze the lists.

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      • I think the solution for subs is to rank them by how many top tier leaders they are best in class subs for. The point of the subs list is to say which pulls are most *useful* as subs, and unless you have every monster in the game, a sub that is best in class on a bunch of teams is more useful.

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    • No. She’s not bad, but her orb enhance active has very low impact, especially for TPA teams where she’s used the most. She’s definitely not on the same level as Meimei, Vishnu or Kaede.

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      • Yes I agree she doesn’t compare to those but I was thinking of using her over ZGL as a damage enhance, but I guess as you said her active doesn’t suit TPA :v thanks.

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  2. So, I thought what the hell, and am now writing an NA tier list. Come check it out sometime? It’s a bit of a mess right now, but in a day or two it’ll be nice and organized.

    http://puzzleanddragonsforum.com/threads/wip-creating-an-na-tier-list.80640/

    So the idea is that the leads are ranked based on objective milestones, no favoritism, no getting kicked because of better leads, each leader stands or falls based ONLY on its own merit. The idea is such that S tier leaders remain S tier until the meta passes them by, they won’t be removed until some significant amount of content exists that they have trouble with.

    So, I had trouble coming up with meaningful markers for mid late and endgame, so I wanted an opinion. I use Arena as the barrier for entry for S tier leaders, along with multiple c10s and all rushes. Do you think this is perhaps unfair in any way? Literally the entire S tier can clear Arena. Maybe not consistently, but at least clear it. And the A+s cannot, except for thse who were once S tier. And maybe kite, not sure about that guy… All in all it seemed to make sense.

    As the barrier between B tier and A tier I have C10 and the rushes. It seems reasonable to expect any A tier leader to take you through the entire endgame except for arena, at least in my opinion.

    B tier is leads that can clear all non restricted mythical dungeons. (mythical is the harder one right? I always forget…) The idea is that any lead on the B list can cleat the entire Late game with minimal plusses. Really for new people seeing if their leads are any good.

    I’m considering doing the S+ S= and S- that I mentioned earlier, but i’m getting mixed results… and a LOT of confusion lol. Maybe I’ll just try it out and see what happens. Maybe just S+ A+ B+, no minuses. People don’t like minuses, but then we’re back at copying the JP list. *sigh* this is harder than I thought. Oh yeah, some newbie over on reddit decided to make a guide for NA, but he doesn’t really know anything about PAD, so he’s only using community input. Which is either genius, or stupid, not sure which. Either way, Kirin is now A, Lakshmi is A+, and Parv is back “because enough people wanted her back.” I paraphrase, but that’s the gist of it 😄

    Found the actual comment: Parvati to A: I really know nothing about this one, except I have seen enough suggestions that Parvati needs to be on the list that I decided to include her.

    Pure gold 😄 She deserves to be A tier IMO, just, for actual reasons instead of blind faith that the community is right lol.

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    • All the barriers are exactly what I would come up with if I were to make a list like that. I have no problems with any of the criteria.

      Good luck with the list, I’ll keep checking it out as you put more work into it. I like the idea of having objective, yet simple criteria. I’m also interested in seeing a farming list. It looks like it’s going to be a lot of work; I’m glad you’re doing it and not me 🙂 You have a solid grasp of the game so I’m interested in seeing what you come up with!

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    • This list looks awesome. I’ve been using Setsu’s NA monster ratings sheet as a guide for some time and it’s great to have another curated list from someone who clearly knows enough about the game and cares enough to do it right.

      Having done something similar for another game, I would recommend that you *not* split the list into S+/S=/S-, for a few reasons: one, it makes more work for you, two, it makes the list more overwhelming for less experienced players without adding much more signal, and three, I’d wager it’ll create more arguments than it will prevent.

      Instead, having a short writeup on each lead discussing pros/cons and dungeons that they may struggle with or have an especially easy time with (e.g. I’ve been playing with ARa and RoBeez recently, and no-RCV dungeons are very different experiences), would be invaluable. I saw that you also intend to discuss sub pool, which is great. I’d love to also have some thoughts on how viable the team is with non-optimal or even farmable subs, and also how much skill is required to play the team (it doesn’t do someone much good to know Ra is an S tier lead if he can’t activate the leader skill, after all).

      Thanks for taking on this project! Looking forward to seeing the final results.

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      • Yeah, I’m giving up on the S+ S= and S- structure, too confusing for people. I’m trying a clean, simple, top of each tier bracket, because some leaders simply ARE better. Example, ARa vs A Shiva. Both S tier leads, ARa is simply better. So I guess I kinda just removed the minuses? IDK. I’ll see how it works for now, and modify it as it needs to be.

        One goal is to make it as thorough as possible to elaborate on what makes each leader good and why, as well as shortcomings and things they struggle with. Down the road I hope to include a few sample teams, REM dependency, and flexibility with different subs from an early, mid, late and endgame perspective. It sounds like a lot of work, but in reality there’s only like 20 leads right now, so it should go by pretty fast.

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  3. I have a haku but shes currently in her D/D split uevo because I run her in a Pandora team. Im wondering if its worth skilling her up or will i inevitably be evolving her to A Haku. I also picked up a Satsuki in the most recent gf and I do have other dark tpa monsters like Typhon, Hanzo and Hades. If not I’m not gonna continue farming Purple Chasers anymore.

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  4. Hey man, what do u think is the best possible bastet team?
    Should i use pirate gronia or a meimei for full board changer?

    Tks bro

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    • I’m partial to Bastet / Osiris / Vishnu / Kaede / Meimei / Bastet. 100% skill bind resist and as many time extends as I could find. Many seem to like double Vishnus; while I don’t personally it’s a totally valid sub set up. That being said, Bastet’s true power is in her flexibility as wood has one of the best assortment of subs in the game. So basically, whatever works for you.

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