Thoughts on the Game8 JP Tier List 9/25/15


Changes from 9/10: Sakuya debuts at S, Yomi Dragon debuts at A+
SS 2259 - 太陽神, Ra Dragon
S 2253 - 破壊神, Shiva Dragon2255 - 海王神, Neptune Dragon2011 - Awoken Bastet2012 - Awoken Ra2389 - Awoken Sakuya2013 - Awoken Anubis2325 - Awoken Yomi2230 - 気狂いピエロ, Kite1847 - 黒天の幻龍王・Zaerog∞
A+ 1954 - Awoken Shiva1937 - 最強戦士・超ベジット1955 - Awoken Lakshmi2226 - 制約と誓約, Gon Freecss1747 - Sparkling Goddess of Secrets, Kali2148 - 早天の日龍喚士, Kanna1951 - Tome-Creating White Phantom Demon, Ilm2030 - Cloud & ハーディ=デイトナ2261 - 夜刻神・Tsukuyomi Dragon1901 - 最強装備, Juggler1949 - Lightning Black Dragonbound, Typhon
A 1947 - Lightning Red Dragonbound, Gadius2006 - Avowed Thief, Ishikawa Goemon2009 - Awoken Horus2080 - 知徳の麗女神, Sarasvati1664 - God of Dark Riches, Osiris1666 - Sacred Life Goddess, Hathor2324 - Awoken Amaterasu Ohkami1736 - Wailing Bleak Night Goddess, Pandora1953 - Enraged Black Phantom Demon, Zuoh1645 - Marvelous Red Dragon Caller, Sonia1371 - Crazed King of Purgatory, Beelzebub


Changes from 9/10: Izanagi debuts at A
S 1738 - 覇征の龍武王, Cao Cao859 - ドスバギィ&バギィネコ1743 - Restrained Dragon Hero, Liu Bei2081 - Divine Creator of Order, Vishnu1747 - Sparkling Goddess of Secrets, Kali2148 - 早天の日龍喚士, Kanna2078 - 劫火の威女神, Kali2150 - Ominous Moon Dragon Caller, Satsuki2180 - 平定の黄泉神, Izanami
A+ 1726 - Awoken Hinokagutsuchi2235 - 復仇の戦軍神, Ares2010 - Awoken Isis2236 - 還魂の商業神, Hermes2075 - Awoken Meimei2237 - 月華の狩猟神, Artemis2324 - Awoken Amaterasu Ohkami1785 - warrior rose, graceful valkyrie2076 - Awoken Haku2290 - 雪白の美姫, Valkyrie Claire2292 - 冥夜の令嬢, Pandora1847 - 黒天の幻龍王・Zaerog∞
A 2073 - Awoken Leilan1947 - Lightning Red Dragonbound, Gadius2094 - Phoenix Rider Valen1670 - Norn of the Past, Urd2289 - 楽園の時女神, Urd1674 - Norn of the Future, Skuld1733 - Blue Chain Starsea Goddess, Andromeda1741 - Soaring Dragon General, Sun Quan1561 - 超サイヤ人第三段階・トランクス2074 - Awoken Karin2322 - Awoken Orochi1672 - Norn of the Present, Verdandi2146 - 金風の碧龍喚士, Kaede1734 - Green Star Vanquishing Deity, Perseus2269 - 克明の諜報神, Ishida Mitsunari1373 - Genius Sleeping Dragon, Zhuge Liang1926 - Heaven-Shaking Thunderdragon, Indra1557 - Dancing Flame, Amaterasu Ohkami2238 - 渾天の光明神, Apollo1887 - 幸七羽毛・ヘッドロココ2281 - 双天の皇祖神, Izanagi1736 - Wailing Bleak Night Goddess, Pandora2273 - 深慮の謀略神, Akechi Mitsuhide1953 - Enraged Black Phantom Demon, Zuoh

The Game8 list.

Awoken Sakuya has hit the tier list.

Awoken Sakuya

2389 - Awoken Sakuya
There’s really no argument against a 100x multiplier being an S rank lead. Even if 8+ combos is out of reach for many players, you still get a substantial multiplier at 6 or 7 combos. Perhaps what really puts her over the top is her new dimension as a bind clearer. Sakuya always had a certain amount of utility with her random assortment of awakenings, but now she has a defined role as a bind clearer. This allows her team to not waste sub space for dungeons with binds. Not that using something like LMeta or Amaterasu is bad, per say, but the value of having another sub slot to work with can’t be ignored. In addition, she still retains her gravity, making her an even better option for clearing the Ultimate Arena.

2012 - Awoken Ra
How does she compare to Awoken Ra? Very favorably, I think, if not just flat out better (although by how much is another matter). Their awakenings are strikingly similar and I wouldn’t give one a distinct advantage over another. Sakuya’s look better at first glance, especially since she has nine compared to Ra’s eight, but in practice I don’t think there’s all that much difference. Sakuya can do more damage with her TPA, though. Their actives are in a similar situation. Sakuya’s bind clear and gravity have more practical applications than Ra’s true damage, but Ra’s time extend is priceless for a combo team. Both criteria have their pros and cons, but I don’t think it’s enough to make a decision either way.

I believe it’s their leader skills that tell the true difference in power and, in my opinion, Sakuya comes out on top. Sakuya’s main drawback is that she requires a 10-combo to reach her full damage multiplier where Ra can just hit one of each element, but it shouldn’t be understated that Ra requires an active use to trigger his own 100x. While this isn’t an issue in most dungeons, it’s a fact that cooldown increasing preemptives are becoming more common. While I can’t speak for Ra firsthand, I know with Bastet that these types of preemptives can kill runs (like Kagu in Yamato Rush). I think this is a big part of the reason why Ra Dragon is superior to Awoken Ra and I believe the same holds true with Sakuya.

If you use the Ultimate Arena as a metric, I think Sakuya is superior in this case as well. Since Sakuya’s gravities consistently deal with the biggest hurdle in the Kalis, that gives her a huge advantage over Ra who either has to hope for DKali or bring a dedicated sub to deal or tank enough damage.

Everything being said, I’m not sure how much better she is. I think Ultimate Arena consistently counts for a lot and Paprika made it look pretty easy, but I think we need a bit more time to judge.

Also, Sakuya is cute and Ra is some ugly Zaku impersonator thing. That counts for a lot.

Yomi Dragon

2261 - 夜刻神・Tsukuyomi Dragon
I never doubted Yomi Dragon was good, it was just underwhelming compared to Shiva, Neptune and especially Ra. It certainly has many shortcomings, but if you have a dark-heavy box and are in need of a quality farming leader with a relatively high ceiling, it’d be a good idea to consider Yomi. As NA looks to be on a month long MP Shop rotation as opposed to JP’s two week, we should have plenty of time to decide and prepare.

Izanagi, the Awoken Norse and the Value of Damage Enhancers

2281 - 双天の皇祖神, Izanagi2393 - Awoken Idunn&Idunna2395 - Awoken Thor
It’s no secret that I’m not a fan of damage enhancers, but I’m not going to argue about that now. I’m more interested in speculating why Izanagi was added to the list, why the new awoken Norse weren’t and whether we can glean anything from the comparison. Kanna is likely the best damage enhancer in the game, so I’ll compare both to her first.

Izanagi got a huge awakening buff, addressing his biggest weakness of having no skill boosts and receiving a second TPA to increase his damage relevancy. Despite this, it’s no surprise that he’s rated significantly lower than Kanna who is superior in just about every way. It’s unlikely for one monster to be strictly better than another in PAD since there are so many variables, but Kanna is about as close as it gets when compared to Izanagi. His active is two turns faster, but I think Kanna’s haste more than makes up for that. His dark sub-attribute is quite good, if only because quality light-dark monsters are scarce, but this isn’t enough of a merit to make up ground on Kanna.

Comparing the Norse to Kanna, they effectively only have one extra awakening due to the ATK increase being useless. Their actives are basically the same except Kanna’s is type-based and two turns faster. Is that difference enough to warrant the Norse’s being two turns slower? I don’t think so and that’s the main reason why I think they’re unimpressive and worse than Kanna. I’d actually prefer they retained their old active than getting this new one, even if it was just a rename so GungHo could collect their Py tax.

So if the Norse are worse than Kanna and Izanagi is much worse, why did Izanagi make the list and the Norse did not? Assuming the author was in their right mind, the answer has to be in the context. While I&I and Thor don’t have any great matches on the leader list — I don’t think Neptune Dragon, Lakshmi, Sarasvati, Ilm, or Cloud need damage enhances — Izanagi isn’t horrible on LKali or Hathor as they both could use the damage boost nowadays. I’m not convinced that’s a good enough reason considering the raw power difference, but I guess it’ll have to suffice.

But in the end, why are we even comparing awoken uevos to a split uevo or even a GFE? While awokens shouldn’t necessarily be flat out better than everything in the game, there should be an obvious application where they shine. The first two Norse fail to impress; I’m not getting my hopes up that GungHo will rectify the situation, but they really should.

Did I miss something? Please leave a comment and let me know!


29 thoughts on “Thoughts on the Game8 JP Tier List 9/25/15

  1. I’m kinda leaning that Ra’s the stronger of the two, but I agree that preemptive skill slows are his biggest weakness. The 10x at 10 thing is nice and all, but it’s a bit too big of a stretch to compare them at 100x when Ra gets 100x at five combos and an active. Personally, I feel that that’s why Ra has the edge, although my opinion is beginning to shift a bit. Kirin’s pretty sweet going from 25x at activation to 36x at 6, 49x at 7, 64x at 8, 81x at 9, and 100x at ten. So she’s not slacking in damage, as Bastet has shown that 36x with TPAs is enough to be one of te best leads in the game. Mixing color and combo leads together is an interesting move for sure. And I like it. I just pulled Kirin two GFs ago, and now I have a pretty good reason to use her 😀

    Re-reading that, it’s all over the place. What I meant to say is: IMO Ra is still better, but Kirin is more flexible. I think my opinion may change as more and more Arena clears roll out though. So happy Kirin is OP! I’m blocking out all the haters. 🙂

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  2. Thor and I&I’s new active skills are probably the worst among Awoken pantheon gods compared to their original actives (move over, Awoken Anubis!). In every prior case, the minimum cooldown was improved or the same as before (exception: Minerva, but she gained an excellent orb changing ability). 3 turns of damage enhance lowered to 1 turn (150% extra damage dropped to 100% overall), and 3 extra turns of cooldown… one can only imagine what GungHo was thinking.

    People on padx seem to think UUevo U&Y is better than LKali, but even with triple typing, a big HP boost, 6x ATK to gods, and skill lock resist; they didn’t break into the tier list. Do you think they were overlooked, or just not that good?


    • I’d argue that Neptune’s active is worse; the poison clause adds several unnecessary turns to an active that has little relevance in water. That’s not much consolation for the Norse, though. If the rest of the pantheon has similar awokens, then there’s still a chance they could get buffs since they could just roll out improvements for the entire pantheon. I’m not counting on it at this point, though.

      It’s possible U&Y were overlooked. I also feel that uuevo Sakuya — who is very similar to U&Y — was overlooked but felt maybe the stigma prevented her from being on the list. There’s no such thing for U&Y. Maybe they don’t belong on the list, but they have to be considered as long as LKali is on it. I feel she should be downgraded. She’s still good, but nowhere near where the rest of the A+ tier is. I think they’re all near the A tier, but I’d need to do more research on the new U&Y to be sure.


      • I think UY suffers from a lack of good subs. Blue gods with prongs are quite restrictive, and thus you’re gonna have to compromise. UY’s damage is also noticeably lacking compared to LKali’s at around 1200 max level.


        • These are good points that I didn’t consider before. Now that I look at it closer, the lack of good subs is huge liability. Thanks for bringing this to my attention.


      • I have U&Y on an alt account, and my best sub on that account is B/G Sun Quan, who conveniently lacks the god typing of the new LS buff. Major bummer.


  3. >and Ra is some ugly Zaku impersonator thing

    … I like him a lot for the same reason!! ;_;

    If I had to guess Izanagi’s L/D typing is the only thing keeping him above ground, it really is valuable for meeting mainly dark requirements. Not as highly rated as DKali of course because DKali brings so much more.

    Similarly, I think U&Y was omitted for being water type. Water is only elevated by strong utility subs like Baggi and Isis, in general it lacks the sheer burst that fire and wood have. Notice how all the top rated fire and wood subs either highly excel in damage or bring a strong combination of damage and utility. It’s just my impression but water has had that subtle stigma for a long time, largely being confined to rows and defensive play.

    U&Y specifically, because of the demand for main attribute water and God type, has a noticeable lack of time extends. DKali is a great and all but you’d just be diluting your damage and not taking advantage of the water/wood enhance awakenings. Their skill lock resist options are also limited because of the color requirement of water/wood/light/dark.

    The list of reasons goes on, it’s a lot of small but fundamental flaws that add up. Whether the team is stronger in practice or GH does something about it remains to be seen. U&Y was definitely a lot more competitive back when 25x and up was relatively exclusive, other colors since then have spiraled out of control in terms of power creep.


    • This is a great analysis of U&Y. I didn’t put in much thought about their subs, but it makes sense considering many of the best subs nowadays don’t have god type. Thanks for the input!


      • There’s also something to be said about the ability to stack Kali’s with impunity on teams like Ra, Sakuya, and LKali herself. Guaranteed activation reduces orb troll enough so that you can stall/combo normally on low risk floors, and light TPA paired with huge multipliers is enough to nuke anything down. The same is not true with U&Y, who still has to rely on incoming orbs the old fashioned way and can potentially struggle to meet damage checks, whether mono-color or rainbow.


    • Almost rank 400 non-IAP is pretty impressive. Congrats, when you get there if you haven’t already.

      I’m assuming your main teams are devil, LMeta and U&Y since that’s where your +eggs are. I don’t know if you find them sufficient for what you want to do, but it’s probably time to catch the latest wave of power creep if you want to keep up with the latest content.

      Fortunately, you have two very good options in Awoken Yomi and Sakuya. You have the Haku for Yomi and LKali for Sakuya, so you’re off to great starts there. Yomi is also nice since you can fill out the team with quality farmable subs like Dark Izanami and Zaerog. Ra is also an option, but considering your subs I like Yomi and Sakuya better. Maybe if you land another LKali, but she’d also be good on Sakuya.

      If you want to go Yomi, +egging Haku might be a good idea since you can use her on your devil team until you eventually awaken her for Yomi. If you go Ra or Sakuya, +egging LKali is a safe bet.

      It’s too bad that you don’t have a wood leader, considering you have who are likely the three best wood subs in Meimei, Liu Bei and Vishnu.


      • Thanks for the thoughts. The hard part of non IAP is never really knowing what I might when rolling… Who knows I might yet get a God wood leader next.
        I think I’ve generally done quite well with rolling, but as can be seen by my +egged cards, initially I rolled a lot of healers.
        I was thinking Haku as well, but wasn’t sure whether to go that was or towards Ra or Lkali. Again thanks for the thoughts!


  4. What are you thoughts on the NA tier lists, SS and S? As a strictly NA player, love your analysis, but can’t figure out if I should keep plowing ahead with Verdandi as my lead.


    • I don’t keep track of NA lists. I’m aware of ones being made on various communities, but I don’t really keep up with them because they don’t mean much to me. If I was a JP player I wouldn’t really care about the Game8 list either, but as an NA player I find that it’s a convenient preview for content soon to come and the speculation is fun until I actually get to use them myself. I wouldn’t let tier lists dictate your direction in the game, it’s just a place to start if you don’t keep up with the game.

      I can tell you right now, though, that Verdandi isn’t an endgame lead. She’ll get you through almost every descended and Rush, so if that’s what you’re aiming for I’d continue using her. If you’re looking to advance to the endgame like Lv10s or Ultimate Arena, you’re going to have to switch leads.


    • There’s literally no reason to use NA tier lists, because they are all made by shitters. You can’t try to crowdsource something on Reddit when people are more driven by their personal agenda than objectivity. People love to scream m-muh lack of collabs but really most top ranked leads don’t need collab sucks. The only lead that takes a significant hit would be Awoken Lakshmi due to the lack of Baggi.

      Also Verd is more sub material than a lead for the endgame. She’s not a bad lead, but it’s just that the top green leads overshadow her by quite a bit.


      • I hear you, but for hacks like me trying to make progress, the lists give some ideas on who to start + egging and building a team around. Thanks for the comments.


      • The value of verdandi is directly proportionate to player skill, imo. I’ve cleared a mess of descends with her that I had no chance at with my other teams. I have bastet, who is objectively better, but I can’t reliably hit 6 combos and limit my iap, which makes her useless as a lead. Some of us are just bad, and imo the best leaders for bad players have tons of health, 10x or higher damage modifiers, and some capacity for recovery. Verdandi is perfect for that. Low ceiling, high floor.


  5. As predicted, the Norse Awokens got buffed just now. I’m not sure how much it will raise their worth as leaders as the exact value of their new multiplier is unclear and the buff to the active skills doesn’t seem to exactly solve the problem… I don’t know, I would rather have a quicker buff.

    Horus’ buff is quite nice though. His sub pool just grew A LOT.


    • Yeah, the active skill still bothers me. I don’t think adding a secondary element is reason enough for the cooldown to be so high. I’d still prefer them to have their old actives. I certainly am curious how large the leader skill multiplier will be. At this point, them being passable, or even good, relative to other awoken uevos really hinges on that value.

      It’s a shame Freyr doesn’t have god type. He would’ve been a nice fit on Shiva Dragon, otherwise. When the nicest thing you can think of is “oh, he’d be a decent Urd sub”, I think it’s telling that they missed the mark. Here’s hoping they’re all more powerful than they seem, though.


      • That, or that they will give their actives another buff… After all, the Sonia boards got two buffs in a short time so it isn’t impossible. I really want to like the Awoken Norse, so please Gungho.

        As for the God typing… I’ve been thinking of something related to it. Up until now, only uuevos or other special cases have received a third type, and that makes the lack of it for Awokens even stranger. But… couldn’t it be in preparation for a new set of buffs? Awoken Uuvos, or something in that line. Most early pantheons have been left behind once again by power creep anyway and that could explain why awoken uevos, in spite of being so special, didn’t get the third type treatment.


        • Yeah… I think the Norse are in line for another buff. Hopefully they get another boost when Freyja and/or Loki are revealed. Unrelated, the Freyja art better be amazing, just sayin’.

          PAD is advancing at a blistering pace so it wouldn’t surprise me if they had something like awoken uuevos planned out. In fact, it makes a lot of sense. It would be rage inducing to have to devolve your awokens to switch to another evo branch and be forced to re-Py them. Well, there are a lot of issues for or against something like this, but it makes sense to me, anyways, especially if it gives awokens a third type.


    • GSonia is considered a good wood sub. If you’re referring to her absence from this list, then you need to realize that this list doesn’t dictate what is good or bad, but what they think are the absolute best. The sub rankings are particularly suspect, though.

      As for why Kaede is considered better, you just have to look at which wood leaders are good. Which is basically just Bastet. Since Kaede is a better fit for Bastet, she’s considered better overall. I don’t think there’s a huge difference, if any, but I do believe Kaede is better for general use.


  6. Yea, I don’t fully understand why Kaede > GSonia as a sub. Or say Vishnu > Meimei. Isn’t full board change worth more than 2-3 orbs changed?


    • Have you actually used both on a Bastet team? I don’t know about you, but I can tell you that Kaede is better in almost every situation. She does similar damage to GSonia, but you can use her active multiple times in a dungeon and her awakenings are superior, particularly her skill bind resist and two time extends. There are situations that GSonia is better, like if you need a board to burst Lv10 Hera-Ur, but Kaede is better for general use. The comparison between the two doesn’t make all that much sense, though, since they do entirely different things. The more apt comparison would be between GSonia and Meimei (and Meimei is hands down better there).

      The Vishnu and Meimei comparison doesn’t make much sense either since they do two very different things. Vishnu is your primary damage dealer which Meimei gives you your burst board. They are the two best Bastet subs and are the closest to what I would consider regulars on the team (Bastet’s strength is her sub flexibility, so there really are no set regulars). I’m guessing you don’t value’s Vishnu’s active very much, but I can assure you that it’s one of the best in the game, especially when paired with quick haste actives (like Kaede). The more apt comparison would be with Liu Bei, which Vishnu wins hands down.


      • Thanks for the thorough explanation! Sorry if I came across as argumentative, I wasn’t trying to be, just didn’t really understand it.

        And Bastet is considered a top leader because of her flexibility to not be orb trolled while still having 36x? (16*1.5*1.5) (As long as you have fast skills)


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