Leads
| SS |  |
| S |           |
| A+ |                 |
| A |          |
Subs
| S |       |
| A+ |          |
| A |                       |
Well, it looks like Beelzebub and RSonia were finally removed. I couldn’t pass on the opportunity to talk about it.
Finally Removed
This change has been long overdue. The Beelzebub-RSonia team has been irrelevant for ages and was their presence on the list was a disingenuous reflection of the team’s actual capabilities. Where most of the other A-rankers have improved over time through better sub selection, the Beelzebub team has barely received anything since uevo Pandora. A myriad of marginal improvements to the devil sub pool — Zuoh, Hanzo devil typing, Akechi, Summer Pandora, Summer Claire — just don’t address the team’s biggest problem: healing.
There’s still a glimmer of hope for the team, though. Awoken Loki, assuming devil type, may replace RSonia and Beelzebub’s leader pair, but the long cooldown the awoken Norse have received thus far isn’t encouraging — you want your longest cooldown to be your three-color board change so you can burst whenever it’s ready. Uevo Nephthys, also assuming devil type, could be an intriguing damage enhance option if she gets rows. A special REM version of RSonia with a 14-turn cooldown, two-turn haste and dark main attribute would be amazing. Perhaps the biggest improvement to the team would be a devil-healer with a Norn board change, ideally creating dark, hearts and wood, allowing it to combo with Pandora. Something that increased heart skyfalls, resisted orb changes or a damage shield would also be nice.
With GungHo reviving pure tank teams with the awoken Norse and the newest dragonbound GFEs, there’s hope that dark will also get some love. I’m curious how things will turn out.
A-Rank Leader Reshuffling
With the string of DMeta upgrades — the 1.35x HP boost and now her cooldown being reduced to five turns and her ATK multiplier scaling with HP — it’s no surprise that she replaced the outdated Pandora as the top dark-row lead. Her biggest weakness is not having a skill bind resist. The only dark subs with two or more SBRs are Chester and Alraune, neither of which are great options for an orb-hungry DMeta team.
The removal of Goemon was as strange to me as his addition was a month or so ago. As this list doesn’t take his farming prowess into consideration, I didn’t really see why he was added back on the list. Now I don’t really see why he was taken off. It’s probably just a reflection of the author not really knowing what to do with the A+ and A tiers.
Parvati took his place, but I also don’t see why she was removed or re-added in the first place. I think the release of Awoken Susano addresses her biggest weakness in HP, but he was released ages ago on JP. Also, if he was even part of the equation then he should be added to the sub list. Her other weakness, SBR, still isn’t easily addressed in wood. Perseus is the most obvious answer, but not an ideal fit on a TPA-based team.
Should Be Added
As there’s probably going to be some movement on the lists due to the expected balance changes, I’ll play it safe this time and pick the low hanging fruit. The Scarlet System is in many ways more capable than the Cloud System and might be even easier to play, so I’m not really sure why she isn’t on the list as a leader. I’d at least put her at the same rank as Cloud. GameWith appears to agree.
Did I miss something? Please leave a comment and let me know!
Setsu's PAD Blog 
I wonder why Gamewidth left off Zaerog8 off his list. Is it because the playstyle is meh?
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I think compared to other leaders on the list, he’s lacking at least one of: top-end power, consistency or ease of use. Which doesn’t mean he should be left off the list, necessarily, but I do understand why they might think he shouldn’t be on it.
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Gamewith has some… odd… omissions. Omissions such as Neptune Dragon, ASakuya, AShiva, ALakshmi, and Z8. Now, I can almost understand the omission of Lakshmi and Shiva, but I would NOT consider Goemon to be a higher tier leader than they are… First off, either team can deal more consistent damage that doesn’t rely on using a 15CD AS, and since they aren’t riding on the cutting edge, can afford to tank and burst at the same time.
However, putting Shiva Dragon at S tier while omitting Neptune dragon is ridiculous, as Nepdra is pretty much the exact same playstyle. (Use actives, use leader’s actives to recharge, use actives again, kill everything.) The only difference is Shiva Dragon is faster at farming, but is that a reason to completely omit a MORE powerful leader?
Also, they list AYomi as a B rank because: 最大倍率の発動は運が絡むものの、発動できればほぼ全てのモンスターを一撃で倒すことが可能だ。操作時間延長を大量に積むため、パズル操作も比較的簡単だ。
Translation: Although the imposition of maximum magnification is luck involved , it’s possible to kill with a single blow almost all of the monsters if you can activate . To gain the operation time extension in large quantities , puzzles operation also is relatively simple .
Translation: Yomi can one shot pretty much anything, and with so many time extends, comboing is quite easy. But it takes luck to get the orbs to activate, so she’s B tier.
All in all, it looks to me like Gamewith is ranking the leads as leads ONLY, ignoring tea composition completely. Because Z8? Fixes the “luck” for AYomi. Two Andromedas and AKarin/Amberjack makes Lakshmi top tier. Andro, Mori, and 2 Hermes makes Neptune dragon top tier. Etc.
All in all, they lost my vote of confidence saying that Yomi was bad because she needs luck.
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I meant to include this, but can’t edit, so here’s a PS:
Now, I’m not saying that my opinions are correct. Or that Game8’s list is right. Or anything like that. All I’m saying is that omitting several of the more powerful leads in the game completely doesn’t lend well to their credibility. Maybe Lakshmi and Shiva don’t deserve a spot on the list. But A Kirin does, and Z8 and Nepdra at LEAST deserve to get mentioned… (the lack of AKirin seems to indicate a lack of updates IMO.)
/endrant.
TLDR: Gamewith has a strange list that neglects to mention several of the more powerful leads of today. Also, their grading criteria are bizarre, as Yomi is B tier because you need luck to get enough orbs to activate.
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The GameWith list has different criteria which also values consistency and ease of use where Game8 emphasizes raw power. The descriptions also seem to emphasize that farming speed is also a high consideration. With this in mind, I believe their list isn’t that bad. It took Game8 a while to get their list in order so I’m willing to give GameWith a few more iterations to add things like Sakuya.
After personally playing with Zaerog and Yomi, I do think they’re inferior leads if you take consistency and ease of use into consideration. Much of Zaerog’s success relies on his skyfall buff not screwing you over and Yomi is just plain difficult to use even with the time extends. Kite just seems flat out better than Yomi which is reflected in their list. I think these are the reasons why they are where they are on the GameWith list. Not to say they’re correct, though. I can’t say anything for Neptune Dragon.
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That’s interesting, didn’t see that while google translating. It certainly does explain their philosophy somewhat, but personally, that’s not the way to go. Easy leads will only get you so far. And when you need a powerhouse like ARa, but you’ve been using Shiva dragon, you’re just boned because you were practicing with a super easy, but relatively low power leader. Hence the reason that under that system, everything is just too confusing.
You can really only have one category to judge. IE, farming leads need a different list than endgame leads, because they’re for different purposes. Same deal with easy to use leads. If you’re looking for a really high ease of use to power ratio, it’s Lakshmi, Parvati, Shivagon, and Nepdra. you get 25x really easy for any of those, 36x for nepdra. But Ra isn’t even on that list lol.
So, making a list that combines the best farming, easy, AND endgame leads, all that you end up with is shiva dragon XD
*NOTE:* I’m in no way saying that game8 is better than gamewith. In fact, as is, all current tier lists are whack. Until we get a list for each possible facet of the game, (IE Farming, endgame, and easy to use) we’re stuck complaining about each iteration of the list. All in all, the only thing we can ALL agree on is that the thing tier lists do best is generate controversy. 😛
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Taking those two as examples, there really isn’t anything that Ra can clear that Shiva Dragon can’t. Just because Ra has a larger multiplier doesn’t automatically make him more powerful because that doesn’t take awakenings or team comp into consideration. I also don’t buy that you’re boned if you use an easy leader all the time. That’s basically all I do and while I’m not amazing, I get by well enough in endgame dungeons with Bastet.
I also don’t see why farming has to be separate. I mean, Ra Dragon is SS on Game8 because he can farm Arena at a high rate. Being able to farm high-end content consistently is extremely valuable nowadays with things like the Arena, Zaerog and Scarlet and leads that can do that should be valued higher. It’s not like they’re putting ROdin or Vritra on the list or something.
Ra is on the GameWith list, at S rank, where he belongs.
Yes, all tier lists have their shortcomings, but they’re still interesting to analyze. There’s only so far your own interpretations can take you, so comparing them to tier lists and then maybe butting heads with other players that agree/disagree leads to learning more about the game. At the very least, I appreciate tier lists for that.
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Well, you raise some very good points as to why the qualifications are a bit more fair than I initially thought, but there are still several very powerful leaders who don’t fall onto their list, and that still irks me. Now, I haven’t had extensive playtime with most top tier leads, but players who have attest that Neptune dragon deserves his S tier in game8’s list. Same with Z8, though he does have some glaring flaws as you mentioned.
So while the system may work for the leads they have listed, I find the lack of certain leads a bit disturbing. As I mentioned, Nepdra is S on game 8 for a reason. Lakshmi may not be the BEST at endgame right now, but anything she can beat, she does consistently. (c10’s version of Meimei is a bitch though.) She’s also crazy easy to use, 5 hearts and rows for 25x? Prior to shiva dragon, she was queen of 25x. She’s also very powerful, seen bursting down Kali a few times. (Not very stable in the arena, but she CAN do it…) Now, I don’t think But I feel that Game8 has her about right at A+. Given the way I understand Gamewith’s criteria of easy, consistent, powerful, and farming, I feel the only one she might be lacking is farming, and only then just in speed. If that’s not enough for a B, then I don’t know how much I trust their list…
And I know how shallow that sounds. “They didn’t rank my main right, so therefore the list is bad.” But honestly, it just feels really janky. I feel that power is much more important than farming. I feel that consistency is also very important, but player skill is not when ranking leads. IE: Ra dragon is OP, but I couldn’t activate him consistently, and neither could 85+% of players. Should that diminish his value? I say no, but on this list, maybe it should? He’s also slower at farming (the most recent ranking dungeon doesn’t count, if there were awakenings, it would be only shiva dragons and Gons again :P), so there’s another strike. Oh yeah, he’s also only consistent with a DKali or two, so do we scratch the consistency because they seem to be ignoring the subs for the rest of the leads?
IDK, maybe I’m just not fully understanding their list. But at the very least, I’m sure we can agree that both lists have problems, and neither is 100% the right way to do a tier list. All in all, players determine how good a leader is. Not internet… makers. What’s the word I’m looking for? IDK. But the moral is, if AHaku can clear Arena, then maybe tier lists are just overrated sources of confusion, and bickering.
Also, when I was saying stuff about farming list vs endgame list, I wasn’t very clear. What I meant was that in farming, speed is of the essence, so you use Shiva dragon, but generally not Ra. The only situation where this is reversed is in Arena, so it’s debatable if that should be considered farming, or endgame. IDK.
When I said Ra isn’t on the list, I was referring to a theoretical list of farming cards. Like, Shiva dragon is SS tier, Verdandi ends up on the list, heros end up on the list, Rodin/ goemon push button teams are on the list, but ra is slow and wouldn’t necessarily be on the list. I realize that they had ra at S, and I agree that is where he belongs.
As for using an easy leader then switching to another, more difficult leader, from personal experience I played rows all my career, minus a short stint with horus (thank goodness, or I would honestly say I’m boned), and I tried picking up SS Isis a while back. It turns out that I can’t get 16x even with all the colors on the board most of the time. Do I blame playing rows? No, I blame NOT playing color combo leads. Now, I practiced for a long time, and have greatly improved. I can /usually/ activate 16x when the colors are there. But if I’d had no experience with Horus, it would have taken much, much longer to pick up.
And note that I mean this as a tease, not an insult, but you seem to be complaining a lot about how AYomi is difficult to play. Wouldn’t have anything to do with playing lazy farming teams most of the time, now would it? 😛 (pls don’t get mad O.O)
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Such a long post right before I go to bed… hopefully I don’t misunderstand something in haste again.
I think there’s just a fundamental difference in values. Outside of the Arena you need a true endgame lead for maybe 1 or 2 dungeon runs every 2 weeks. Since farming is what you’re doing the most, I don’t have any problem with valuing that highly. A lead like Shiva Dragon that can do both pretty much puts all other non-Arena leads to shame. I’d agree that GameWith has a lot of work to do with their list, but I’ll be glad if they continue doing it. Trying to please everyone is a fool’s errand so I hope they stick to their criteria; at the very least it’d be boring to have essentially the same list as Game8.
I gotcha about Ra, makes more sense now. This is what happens when I reply right before bedtime.
I understand what you’re trying to go for with your tease, but I still don’t buy the thought that normally playing with a harder lead is the way to go if you want to improve. In my experience, watching tutorial videos, learning from other players, using practice board apps, and having dedicated practice sessions in Endless is much more efficient. All of which you can do in the time you saved using an easier lead. Playing difficult leads with live stamina only creates stress, leads to frustration if you fail and is prone to diminishing returns. Even though I mainly use Shiva Dragon, Goemon and ROdin for 99% of my play time, I still put in practice in Endless and that’s enough to get reasonably good at most leads.
Besides, there’s pretty much a low skill team for every endgame dungeon since PAD started. Skill is impressive, but overrated.
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There is no such thing as an Awoken Kirin
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I’m a little confused by the assertion that BeelzeRonia’s biggest weakness is healing. My team isn’t quite ideal, but fully plussed it’d be sporting RCV close to 10k. Are there teams that heal for much more than that?
To me it seems like the team’s biggest weaknesses are consecutive burst and binds. Burst you can solve to some degree with more healing — if I can stay alive long enough, I can reuse my first spike — but getting both Pandora and one of the leaders bound is pretty much the end of a run, and I don’t see any good solutions out there except maybe Yomi Dragon (but really, if you have a Yomi Dragon, is there any chance that Beelzebub is your first option as a lead?).
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I don’t know what kind of dungeons you tried with the team, but when you’re taking 20k, sometimes 30k+ and 99% gravities, healing becomes the biggest constraint. Combined with all the orb changes and skyfall augmenting skills in the Challenge Dungeons, the amount of hearts you get becomes the most limiting factor. Only compiling the problem is devils’ miserable RCV. I don’t know what kind of team you’re hitting 10k RCV with, but even that much really isn’t enough.
I’d say all the new awoken Norse teams as well as the MP Dragons all heal for more since they aren’t limited to the garbage RCV from devils. Probably the Awoken Indians, too.
Well, yeah, it’s pretty obvious tank teams are going to have problems with consecutive burst. That’s why they’re called tank teams. I mean, you wouldn’t fault a burst team not being able to tank hits. You’d instead run a damage shield, but Beelzebub has no such luxury.
It seems like everyone overestimates the impact binds have on a dungeon run. You can almost always work around them, even on a Beelzebub team. With two Pandoras and an RSonia on your team, a single bind will almost never be fatal. If it’s a dark or devil bind, you probably shouldn’t be bringing your Beelzebub team. The most fatal bind I can think of is Athena’s dark bind for 10 turns, which no bind clearer outside the original Amaterasu or Ceres is going to be able to deal with. Also, Yomi Dragon isn’t a devil.
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I generally run Beelze/Haku/Hanzo/Pandora/Lilith/Ronia. Currently 8,679 RCV, with Hanzo at 33 RCV eggs and Lilith with 0, so another 1237 possible RCV for a total of 9916. As that’s been good enough to clear a lot of content, I hadn’t really considered that devils have terrible RCV, but yeah, looking at it, Beelze, Haku, and Ronia are all pretty bad, and so are Zuoh and Akechi.
Fair point on binds. I only have the one Pandora, which often gets used to make hearts, so if Ronia gets bound, or worse, both Pandora and Ronia, it’s tough to work around. Although maybe that gets to your original point — if the team healed for more, I wouldn’t have to use Pandora as much, and so would have her up to deal with binds.
Also, clarification: would Awoken Loki replace Beelzebub, or Ronia? All the other Awoken Norse LS are 2.5x atk/rcv, so I assume Loki would be too.
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Yeah, that was a mistake on my part, he should replace RSonia.
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Mostly unrelated, but I rolled the Halloween REM a few times yesterday and got a bunch of troll golds (how many Chibi Valks does a man need?) in a failed attempt to get Toth and Sopdet. Rolled once more today, telling myself it would be my last attempt, gold popped out…omg stop giving me these shitty gold eggs. Turns out it was Halloween Kali @_@
To tie this back slightly (sorry, never gotten anything good from these collabs before, had to say something!), nice to see she is S-Rank~
Also, is Set actually an A-Sub? His cooldown seems crazy long for what it does.
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First off, GG on the HKali!
Secondly, Set is certainly a good sub, but you’re correct in saying his CD is too long. I imagine that it’s mostly hype at a new fire type triple pronger (Liu bei was S tier for too long IMO), if that’s the case he’ll be gone in a month or so. If he sticks around, I guess he IS that good.
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Thanks! Good point about Set. Hopefully he ends up being hype; After Osiris, I never want to skill something off a Devinyan ever again…
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Game8 has a tendency of overrating subs that have sexy awakenings like triple rows or TPAs. Their whole sub list is pretty much a mess, anyways, so I wouldn’t put too much stock into it. I do think Set is pretty solid, though, even despite his long cooldown, but considering subs like Karin and Leilan are also A, I can’t really accept him at A as-is.
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Mm, yeah that’s true. I can see Set as potentially being more useful for Urd than Kagutsuchi, but I’d rather have Kagutsuchi for Awoken Shiva, and Shiva Dragon generally uses rows. On the other hand, it’s not that often that I use Kagu more than once per dungeon anyway, so maybe Set’s longer CD is fine (or maybe I just need to reorder how I use my actives…).
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Haku -> Akechi results in a 2/3 dark, 1/3 heart board. Shame about their RCV…
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I’ve decided to actually work on my Zaerog8 after seeing it consistently up there. I have all the evo mats except I am having the damndest time getting the five dragons required for ulting into FD (Samurai) Zaerog. I’ve been farming Zaerog8 all day (which sucks) without a single drop. I tried farming Extreme Dragon Rush a few days ago without a single drop. I am very frustrated.
Am I stuck waiting for their once per year dragon to roll around? Do they sometimes rotate to coin?
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**I mean “Am I stuck waiting for their once per year dungeon to roll around?”
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If you’re talking about the Samurai/War Dragons, they’re in the technical dungeons now. It’s the Pirate Dragons that are in the coin dungeons only, for now anyways.
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YOU ARE RIGHT! I am very excited! Damn puzzledragonx didn’t have that listed as a drop location. >:O
As always thanks a ton Setsu! Love your blog.
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No problem, glad to help.
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Don’t forget that Pirate Dragons will come to the technicals at some point soonish too!
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All of these lists are very subjective. Attempting to rank individual cards value based on how they potentially interact with other cards a player may or may not have seems a hopeless exercise. Lots of cards have little or no value without having other specific cards, I guess you have to assume everyone has every card, which is definitely not the case.
-Stats are weighted and can be directly compared.
-Attack multiplier can be directly compared but would need to take into account activation difficulty, orb troll potential, etc.
-Awakenings could be given a numerical value to attempt to quantify their utility but even seemingly good awakenings (like Two Prong or Row Enh) value would depend on playstyle or overall team makeup.
-Active skills could be broken down into categories and ranked in their various categories (dmg enhance, orb change, damage protection, etc) but you’re back to the same problem as before: the active skills are all tied to different cards with different awakenings and typing, etc.
-multiples of the same card max skilled can short circuit the games systems leading to scenarios with repeated full orb changes every turn, etc.
Tldr – there are so many moving parts to consider you could likely write a post graduate statistical analysis on it and still not definitively answer anything 🙂
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There’s no good objective way to rank leaders. The lists being subjective is what makes them fun to talk about, even if the information they represent is sometimes dubious.
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Goemon’s moment in the spotlight was bizarre, he’s pretty niche even in terms of farming and his ability to clear quickly falls off a cliff with skill binds and other hazards. I mean he’s great for speed clears when applicable, but that’s just the fast alternative to otherwise pretty straightforward descends.
Just seemed totally odd even among the A’s, based on how this list is structured. If nothing else it could be seen as a reflection of the value JP places on farm capability, which is at least slowly permeating to US/EU. Like entry level, farming could be an entirely different list. Game8 does rank farm capability in their template teams though. (By the way I like their term for farming, 周回 shuukai – circling around)
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what do you think about halloween kali as a S sub? Im still debating on whether to purchase her for my A.Ra team. As right now, im using ra, 2xlkali, sun quan, and dmeta. thoughts?
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I think she deserves to be an S-tier sub. As for whether you should buy her, it really depends on your situation in the game.
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Interesting that Awoken Orochi is an A-tier sub. May I ask what uses he’s most popular for right now? Trying to find a use for mine, he’s currently a trophy and that makes me sad cause he looks so cool.
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I’m not actually sure, to be honest. I do know that his delay is key for certain teams to clear bosses like Vishnu, but that’s not enough to make him an A sub. Game8 tends to overrate subs with sexy awakenings and 4 TPAs certainly qualifies. There may be more to him, but I’m too lazy/uninterested to look.
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Those 4 dongers definitely do add appeal. I personally need to stop putting so much stock into these tier lists. They’re not perfect and there are most certainly many other good leaders aside from these guys (although I am VERY frustrated at LMetas distinct lack of a good buff). I’m currently all over Awoken Ama, for the first time ever I can easily do Challenge 6 and its about damn time.
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…that “anonymous” comment was me by the way. Mobile screwed up my settings. Sorry to spam your comment section
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Since ra dragon is coming. I am actually tempted to buy it. However i am missing d kali as the key sub. (What a shame, $$$ rolls and she does not show up for me during gfe event)
Was thinking of using kaeda meiji as alternative. I would love to know your opinion. I saw one jp vid of ra dra no dkali team with kaeda meiji and fat chocobo. But the guy never used meiji skill so I am doubting the validity.
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Maeda is a decent DKali replacement since he also comes with a skill bind resist which is desperately needed on Ra Dragon subs. His active obviously isn’t as good, but it’s not embarrassing and has a haste. Perhaps the better question is what you’re going to use to cover dark with no DKali?
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So my planned team would be
Ra dra
Maeda Keiji
Maeda Keiji
L/D Izanagi
Awoken Isis
Ra dra
Ive seen people shot kali below 65%(heck they shot her down to 15%) with kanna so i guess izanagi can do the job too assuming he is out already by the time arena comes. Not 100%skill seal resist. Was considering awoken horus for dark sub since he has 2 skill seal resist but the active is meh. To get max skill seal resist i would have to sub one of my maeda to indra.
What concerns me is the skill up for maeda, but i have plenty of shynpys anyway. And also my heart pounds when maeda’s orbs replace trigger a match to troll the board.
I already have awoken sakuya team. Light based though. Confident to clear with it. But yeah just want to be hip with ra dra 😉
What do u think?
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I’d say just stick with Sakuya, it sounds a lot more consistent. With the rate we’re getting ultimates, we should be getting her within a month, if not in 1-2 weeks. If NA follows JP, we’ll have more chances to get Ra Dragon, should you want him later. I can’t deny the allure of the FotM, though.
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GameWith vs Game8. Super Weird how they are so far apart on some things (like nepdra not existing). I’m going to give it my best analyzing :D.
Game8 Heavily weighs arena clears (basically the only thing that sets RaDra apart). That’s not wrong but I’m not sure it’s an accurate representation of overall power.
Sub list ignores typing/team placement, generally it’s just raw power in a vacuum, IE it’s pretty close to worthless and should be ignored.
One thing GameWith does, is use multiple factors: Power (Damage) Consistency, Active Skill.
i’d rate the Dark leads like so:
Kite – Pow: S, Consistency: A, Active: A – Overall S, Strong in everything
A. Yomi – POW: S, Consistency: A, Active: C – Overall B, Weak Active hurts here.
YomiDra – POW: A+, Consistency A, Active: S – Overall A+/S, depending on how you weight damage.
Anubis – POW: S, Consistency: D, Active: B – Overall C, too inconsistent. 7×6=S.
Zaerog – POW: S. Consistency: C, Active A – Overall B Active is good, but needs so many orbs to work, TPAs are important, and 4 dark combos. 13-16 dark orbs is a lot to ask for.
Game8 Feels like a power list, and assumes exceptional play. I’m ok with that, as long as you respect that for what it is.
GameWith Seems factor in all the categories, and apparently only puts 5 things per tier, however this leaves a ton of omissions. IMO, S tier should have 1 thing of each color, and it should be the best thing of that color, Omitting a color if it’s not up to snuff. In that case I’d argue. RaDra, Kite, Nepdra, Shivadra, Bastet are the clear S tier. Yomidra, Awoken Ra, and Sakuya are all right there, but I think they are slightly outclassed by Kite and Radra respectively.
7×6 and 5×4 need their own lists, it’s a much different game on 5×4, where Yomidra, Shivadra, and Gon quickly overtake the rest of the field. 7×6 makes RaDra and Anubis much more consistent, while making A.Yomi’s +5sec active much more powerful, as well as fitting 7 combos and a 5E on the board.
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I can definitely agree with your relative rankings of the elite dark leaders. I’m in agreement with just about everything else in your post, too. Any opinions on where you think the improved DMeta will land?
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I’m really not sure on Dmeta. Gut feeling says A.
Closest thing is Gon, He’s got a slightly better conditional on the leader skill, IMO. However she has a higher multiplier under 50% and obviously a more open sub pool. She lacks a TPA, but is bind immune. Honestly when you look at them side by side, the difference is “how bad is it to have to take a hit before doing anything”. I think, coupled with the delay, Gon’s leader skill is easier to manage, that being said, both can make excellent hybrid teams (Satuki is clearly amazing) and dominate in 5×4.
I could see her on A+ but I think it’s generous. The real question, is what’s the team 😀 Currently I’m leading towards Haku, Satsuki, Awoken Loki** Pandora. partially because I have it 🙂
**assuming awoken loki keeps the double SBR of the other norse, He’s needed for 100% SBR. This is just a shot in the dark though 😀
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Your tier list is better than Game8’s or GameWith’s.
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heh, Thanks, though it’s less complete.
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I’ve noticed Odin Dragon is only MP dragon not on this list.
Is he worthwhile or is Ceres essentially the same and not enough of an upgrade even on ABastet teams or other teams?
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Odin Dragon fills a niche that isn’t needed. He’s great at what he does, but will languish until a team actually needs it. Victor brought up the idea of using him on a Meimei System team, which is cool, but is quite narrow. I really wish those auto-heals were OEs instead (if only because 6 TPAs or rows would be asking for too much).
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DMeta can get full SBR with either Castor or Awoken Loki + combinations of Beach Valk, Halloween Vampire and Grisar. It’s a huge investment for sure but it’s undoubtedly strong.
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Strong compared to what? That doesn’t seem like enough orb generation for the type of team you’re running. Even with the HP buff you still need to burst hard and fast. Assuming her active and LS remain unchanged, DMeta would need something like a board change or double orb change with SBR and rows to catch up, not a bunch of heartbreakers. At least include Mitsuhide/Pandora.
You could say you are more survivable with her 5 turn damage reduction, but the reality is most of the time you need to use it as an enhance in a burst-or-die situation because with the 50% threshold and 1.35x HP you are pretty much at the same place as before at 80%, ~20k when fully plussed. There’s also the problem of healing with no RCV bonus.
I’d like dark rows to come back too but it’s going to need more than a few premium REM rolls. And the type of player who can afford those rolls or who ran DMeta back when 16x + rows was considered strong has little motivation to bother with HP conditionals and starved SBR options.
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Why is CaoCao an S tier sub? I dont really see him on many end game teams and with so many delay shields i dont get why he is ranked that high.
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I covered this in my previous post, saying Ares and Cao Cao should swap places.
I think you’re underestimating the power of delays, though, as they are critical for cleanly clearing perseverance monsters as well as things like Vishnu. Status shields aren’t as common in the endgame as they used to be.
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Kenshiro is an S rank leader. He’s the best of Shiva and Horus put together, though his AS is pretty jank (not that Shiva or Horus had great ones either).
Raoh is at least an A+ leader. A poor man’s ShivaDra, but 7 CD haste skills are godly. Mixes with Scarlet system pretty well.
I don’t know why these guys aren’t listed. Along with Scarlet’s omission, does Game8 have an anti-red bias?
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The haven’t updated the list since 10/26.
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