Leads
| SS |   |
| S |      |
| A+ |                     |
| A |             |
Subs
| S |      |
| A+ |            |
| A |                       |
They’re starting to rearrange the leader list, something that was long overdue.
RIP Bastet
Bastet was my first real endgame lead and I thought she was going to fulfill that role for a long time. Then the MP Dragons came and ruined that. Despite the demotion, I feel she’s still one of the strongest non-MP leaders in the game. I think her flexibility in both puzzling and team making is being underrated in favor of larger raw multipliers. I’ll stop myself here, though, as no matter what I write just feels overly biased. I don’t think this demotion will affect players’ opinions of her much and I still expect her to see a lot of play; at least until the next round of power creep.
The Culling of S-Rank Leaders
I’ve already gone over Bastet and Kite isn’t in NA, but after playing firsthand with both Yomi and Zaerog∞ I felt that they weren’t quite on the same level as Ra or Sakuya. Yomi is extremely strong, but suffers from being incredibly difficult to play. The match-five requirement makes maneuvering on the board difficult and space issues become futher complicated when your sixth or seventh dark orbs are just additional dead space. However, I doubt difficulty of play figured into Game8’s downgrade. If it did then Anubis also would’ve fallen as he not only requires skill, but luck as well.
Zaerog∞ is another incredibly strong lead, but I didn’t enjoy the feeling of being at the mercy of skyfall. DIza is a huge reason why his team is so strong, but she’s also a burden since she isn’t an orb changer on one of the most orb-hungry leads in the game. Sure, you can mitigate too little skyfall with orb changers like Satsuki or stalling via DIza, but a big part of the endgame now is about damage control which is incredibly difficult to perform with Zaerog. I wouldn’t look forward to facing Sopdet, Parvati or Kagutsuchi with his team. I think this downgrade is more justified than Yomi.
My reasoning aside, I think these moves were made to make the S-tier more exclusive and paving the way for eventually bringing the SS tier back to S (who knows when that will be, though). What I’d really like to see, though, is another huge move in downgrading more A+’s to A (looking at you, LKali) and removing some A’s altogether. Then again, the musical chairs nature of the current A-tier is so nonsensical I doubt any changes short of removing the tier altogether would be satisfying.
Goemon Removed, Again
Is this a running joke now or something?
“Should Be”
I don’t feel incredibly strong about anything on the leader list and picking on the sub list again just feels like beating a dead horse so I’m going to leave this section vacant this time around. Maybe I’ll feel in a more critical mood once the Thanksgiving holiday passes.
Did I miss something? Please leave a comment and let me know!
Setsu's PAD Blog 
I’m at the point where I am crappier at using Sakuya than Yomi because of all the Yomidra i play.
LikeLike
IMO RCV multiplier is needed for true S tier in this meta. Anubis stayed, with ra and sakuya because of bind immunity, all the bind able leaders are simply less reliable and got demoted… Anubis is wrong on the list, unless its for 7×6. But that being said, I think this shift is awesome, because the list feels more honest.
LikeLike
A+>A Kali, juggler cloud typhoon
IMO.
LikeLike
I never appreciated how difficult doing the 5 orb match + 7 combo was until I actually played Yomi.. Watching reco nail combo after combo made me think it wasnt so bad haha..
LikeLike
If nothing else, Bastet’s demotion may rekindle the “Awoken Bastet vs. Awoken Shiva” debate.
LikeLike
Vishnu an s sub while no s leader uses him anymore?
LikeLike
To make that true for everything then only DKali would be an S sub.
LikeLike
Don’t care what jp say, Z8 is SS in my heart <3.Was able to beat Arena with him more frequently than with bastet (who lack of +plus hurt her soo much).
LikeLike
“They’re starting to rearrange the leader list, something that was long overdue.”
About damn time 😀
“RIP Bastet”
Welp, I’m 100% unbiased as I’ve never played her seriously before, so perhaps I can say a few words without any bias 😉
First off, there was always a divide among the S tier leaders. It used to be AAnubis, ARa and ABastet were the top of the top, followed by shiva and Lakshmi and the others. Then, the MP dragons came. The new divide was Ragon, ARa, and AAnubis, with the rest falling behind, including ABastet. ASakuya and Yomidra solidified the divide, and I feel that dropping Bastet and Z8 is somewhat justified at this point, with 36x becoming “weak” in the current meta. LOL.
Now, Bastet’s TPA subs have pretty much been the reason she was S tier for so long, but at this point it’s clear that rows are resurging, so Bastet’s current arsenal is more or less her (semi-)permanent arsenal. And while I’ve never played Bestcat, Videos I’ve seen peg her as having a tough time in Arena, and that’s a very big nail in the coffin, if not the coffin itself lol. And that’s not likely to change any time soon.
As for Z8, it’s remarkable that he’s been S tier for so long. It’s a testament to his sheer power… three months ago. Now, he’s very solid, but again, I’ve never played him. Never beaten him either, but that’s for another day. Fact: He’s one of the most orb hungry mono color leaders, and that’s a big ding against him right there. ery hard to trigger his full multiplier without good skyfall luck, either matching when you have 3 sets, or giving you enough orbs to activate the next turn, which is difficult as well. As I mentioned, 36x isn’t as big as it once was, and a few OEs aren’t enough to boost you enough. And that’s coming from one of OE’s biggest advocates lol.
Now, awoken Yomi, actually surprised me. I actually had him pegged in the upper half of the list for his sheer damage potential. Now, OEs with 36x is not that major, even if you get a full 2x from OEs, you still only get 72x, but for AYomi, you get over 112x, and that IS significant. Coupled with the fact that several great subs were TPA heavy, you end up dealing insane damage. Now, he’s NOT easy to activate, so that is a serious factor. But if that’s not the reason he got the boot, then it’s beyond me why he was demoted…?
The list, as it now stands, is very close to how I rank the leaders personally. Which is good. Well, at least as far as SS and S tiers go. A+ and A can be debated heavily, but whatever. I still think AYomi is S tier, and I’m thinking that Shivagon is on the way out, but aside from that I’m more or less OK. Maybe we get a tank team or two in S tier in the near future, that would be my next guess.
One note: I mention a few times that 36x isn’t enough damage a couple times above. Nepdra has some OBSCENE rows going for him, so his damage output is WAY higher than it looks. There’s a video or two where he one shots Kali, but I can’t find it atm. So yeah, 36x with up to 20 rows (Hermes, Gabe, Bodin for 3x each, and 4x each lead… 14 rows is practically a given on this tea lol) is a LOT of damage.
Shivagon has this as well, but not to the same extent. 25x is a lot less, and he NEEDS god types, whereas Nepdra only wants them for the rcv multiplier. All in all, lower multiplier, smaller sub pool, less rows, can’t arena as well, but can farm fast, so there’s that… S tier??? Whatever.
Anyways, TLDR: Yomi dropping is weird, Shivagon will fall soon, but I agree with the rest.
LikeLike
if you really look at it, it’s super simple. They lowered the things without Bind immunity or RCV multipliers, it’s really that simple.
Bastet does more damage than awoken yomi, there is math, but short version is if you turn the “5 with one OE connected” into a TPA, bastet’s damage is bigger using 1 less orb. And her secondary elements actually still do damage, which Yomi (and yomidragons) basically never do.
Shivadragon can clear anything, and can grind through most things, but his weak active skill hurts, ultimately, he can still kill anything in the game, and will outpace yomidragon’s damage with similair orb counts due to rows, he’s pretty far behind yomidragon in overall power however, due to bind immunity and an incredible active skill.
Neptunedragon requires just SO MANY orbs, it’s the only thing really holding him back, you have to grind a lot more with that team than it feels like you “should” but it’s acceptable because when he wants to kill something it dies, the LS coupled with 8 rows from the leaders creates and incredible amount of damage. Also his active skill is excellent at handling some hurdles in the game without difficulty, like awoken meimei, sopdet, and hinokagatsuchi
Game8 is a power list. it’s starting to ask more questions.
Previously it only asked “Will this kill it” now it’s
“Will this kill it”
“Can this survive”
“Can this ALWAYS kill it”
Think of Shivadragon as 50x but requires a row, and he’ll make more sense in a damage perspective.
really though, it’s basically just “This kills stuff, but sometimes it gets bound, and then it can’t kill it anymore, so that’s probably worse than stuff that can’t get bound, so it can always kill it”
I think bastet is higher damage than awoken Ra (actually, I know it is, I’ve played/watched a lot of them both) but run extreme endless and die to apollo a few times and you quickly recognize her faults, she was my first end game leader, and she’s always going to have a place in my heart, but I’ve seen her die on arena to godin/bludin tamas preempt binding one of the cats too many times, she simply can’t be S because things screw her over. The same is true of all the other demotions, preemptive random card binds, are generally a 16% chance to just die.
A+ needs to get culled, because A+ should be the zone of things that can kill, but can’t survive super well, or things that survive super well, but have generally lower damage. (awoken Norse pairings).
TLDR: Shivadragon is 50x+ leader because you just accept that you need a row. Bindable leaders without RCV multipliers are in a bad place, because they get 1 bound, then die (often).
A+ Should be the tier of high damage or high utility, but not both.
LikeLike
Can’t argue with that.
LikeLike
Yep. One thing to note about Bastet teams too is in quite a few cases the damage dealt is overkill, so it being able to output higher damage than some other leads is pointless.
LikeLike
OK, this is a very well thought out post invoking discussion, and I like it! 😀
But there are a few things wrong with your post that I would like to remedy. We’ll start here: “Bastet does more damage than awoken yomi, there is math, but short version is if you turn the “5 with one OE connected” into a TPA, bastet’s damage is bigger using 1 less orb.”
Now, for calculation purposes, I will be using this team for AYomi: http://www.puzzledragonx.com/en/simulator.asp?q=2325.99.1.0.0.0.8..1847.99.1.0.0.0.8..1847.99.1.0.0.0.8..2076.99.1.0.0.0.8..2180.99.1.0.0.0.5..2325.99.1.0.0.0.8
So, the calculation for OEs is (1+.06*X)(1+.05Y) where X is the number of enhanced orbs in a combo, and Y is the number of OE awakenings on the team. So for a 5 match of enhanced orbs, that’s 1.25x, and for 15 OEs on the team, that’s 1.75x. Multiplied together, you get 2.1875x. Multiply THAT by AYomi’s 56.25, and you get 123.05 rounded to the hundredth.
Bastet’s pretty simple math wise. You get a flat 36x, with a triple pronger getting 1.5^3. Now, 1.5*1.5*1.5= 3.375, so 36*3.375= 121.5x, or already lower than AYomi’s max damage. But here’s the kicker: For ABastet, the whole team isn’t comprised of triple prongers, as you need more utitlty than that, so you generally have 2 triples, and 2 doubles, with both Bastets being SINGLES.
So AYomi has a 123x for the whole team, while ABastet has 121.5 for triple prongs, 81 for doubles, and 54 for singles. AYomi will ALWAYS do more damage than an ABastet team, but he is MUCH harder to play, so it balances out. Just like how Radra will always outdamage AYomi when activating, but being MUCH harder to play/build a team for.
Now, there is a lot more math that we could go into, such as multiple TPAs for bastet, or combo count, but long story short, the math just gets way too complicated at that point, and it’s not easy to calculate. Besides, half of AYomi’s team has TPAs as well, so how do you equally compare a TPA team and a hybrid OE/TPA team. Long story short, on basic activation, AYomi wins in damage.
My next problem: “Think of Shivadragon as 50x but requires a row, and he’ll make more sense in a damage perspective.”
Well, that’s kind of a warped way of thinking, as he’s either a 25x lead with rows, or a 50x leader without rows. It’s like saying that Nepdra is a 36x leader, or a 108x leader because you just need 11 orbs. By thinking of him as a 50x leader, that’s thinking of the MAXIMUM damage he can possibly do. You can’t be thinking that his 50x version gets any extra damage on top of the 50x, because the extra damage has already been accounted for. And by that logic, his TPA team would be stronger, as all it takes is 4 orbs for a 56x multiplier on double TPA cards… The fact of the matter is, we don’t talk about the maximum damage cards can do, because there are SO many variables. What if you match 3 rows? you use the 25x to calculate the damage, not the 50x, so thinking of him as a 50x is overall detrimental.
I almost exclusively play row teams, so I know the power behind them. I main ALakshmi, so I’m intimately familiar with how much damage 25x with rows can do. There are things that make Shivagon better than Lakshmi, that’s for sure, no debate. But there are many, many things that make the rest of S tier better than Shivagon, only one of which is damage.
Speaking of damage, 3/5 S tier leads have greater than 100x BASE activation. Nepdra easily breaks 100x with his rows. Shivagon, as you yourself mentioned, is a 50x leader, and that’s WITH his rows.
LikeLike
For a “basic activation”, Bastet also gets OE damage for free. Typical teams generally have 6 OEs or more.
Unrelated, playing Ra Dragon is like a walk in the park compared to Yomi.
LikeLike
So lets talk “teams” for a second, cause it’s an important distiction.
Bastet, Meimei, Vishnu, Verdandi, Susano, Bastet – Brings an average of 2 TPAs and 9 OEs
A. Yomi, Zaerog8, A.Haku, Saksuki, Yomidragon A. Yomi brings average 1 TPA and 9 OEs (also no shield, and 1 less time extend)
So ignoring enhanced orbs (as they are equal), you’re going to see bastets damage greatly outpace Awoken yomi’s, using fewer orbs, Lets assume not additional on color combos, You’re looking at 81x for bastet, next to A.Yomi’s 56.75, with OEs canceling out as both teams have the same number. only needing 4 specific orbs. the rest just have to generic combos. Once you reach this point, Bastets damage will continue to outpace yomi’s, while being easier to play.
Shivadragon, rows, and damage.
We have to assume that all leaders need orbs to “activate” I consider shivadragon 25x at 3 orbs, scaling up to 50x at 6 orbs, Math at 10 orbs, or 12 orbs, ect, as a conservative estimate (bringing it logically in line with other leader skills, that require specific amounts of orbs). on this scale, Shivadragon is ~ 50x leader, and Neptune dragon is closer to 100x, but requires almost double the orbs to activate, both teams with 12 orbs will do similar damage, that damage level is “big dick damage”.
Neptune Dragon also suffers greatly from “6 combo required” bosses, as it’s very difficult to activate his leaderskill and 6 combo, which further (I don’t want to say hampers, but normalizes? his damage).
So now lets talk ra/sakuya. Assuming 8 combo boards, you need 12/15 specific orbs to be around, multi-orb changers don’t work. Sakuya is a 64x leader, with skillfall powers to crazy numbers, while awoken Ra, lacks most of the big damage increasers, besides simply being 100x. That being said, his damage, like yomidragon’s damage, is “enough”, which is why being bind immune and doing “enough” damage puts him on S-tier.
The thing that is intrinsitcally wrong with game8’s list (but improving) is that it doesn’t (or hasn’t in the past) put much value on RCV/ability to duel, which (after the resolve mechanic) has become a significant part of the game. Also leader binds (or random binds) are becoming more prevalent pushing the need for unbindable leaders.
I’d say the major challenges that we’re dealing with, are getting hit for 18-20k a turn, and needing to grind it “aka Kali/resolve bosses” and Preemptive “Fuck yous” like skill delay’s and binds. In this realm, RCV multipliers help you stall to get skills back up, and immunity to leader binds ignores a major challenge in pad right now, those coupled with “killing stuff” make things worthy of S-tier. I’d accept the argument that Both of those are the true S tier, but that’s what SS tier is… so.. shrug?
LikeLike
I also want to say, this is a good discussion, and I think we all benefit from dissecting the logic and actually figuring things out 😀
LikeLike
Bestcat is still S rank in my heart and she will continue to get more play that A.Ra from me at least right now. I do love Ra and his 77777 has saved me from pii gangups and other nonsense plenty of times.
LikeLike
unless something is binding your leader or Red, you’re almost certainly better off with Cat.
LikeLike
Hi setsu was wondering what would be a good sub for ra dragon if I don’t have a second dkali??
LikeLike
Fat Chocobo.
LikeLike
Thx .. This pcgf I rolled about 45 times I think around there only got one dkali sigh lol but I’m happy I actually got one lol.. They hate me
LikeLike
Considering DKali, or any specific 6-star, is about 1% chance (probably less), I’d say you got pretty lucky.
LikeLike
Oo damn didn’t know that lol
LikeLike
I don’t think I’m green biased and I agree with your sentiment for Bastet. The current S tiers require either hefty amount of MP, a stacked box, or both. Whereas I figure most people could put together a halfway decent to optimal Bastet team, get their foot in the door of endgame, and be in a good place.
Despite her weaknesses she’s done quite well for herself and I don’t think needs a eulogy just yet!
LikeLike
Pingback: Puzzle & Dragons North American tier list (Jan. 11, 2016): New Year’s Update | Puzzle & Dragons Tier List (NA)