Thoughts on the Game8 JP Tier List 2/1/16

Leads

Changes from 1/27: Awoken Pandora debuts at A+
SS 2259 - Sun God, Ra Dragon2261 - God of the Night, Tsukuyomi Dragon
S 2253 - Destroyer God, Shiva Dragon2255 - Sea Deity, Neptune Dragon2389 - Awoken Sakuya2013 - Awoken Anubis2507 - Awoken Archdemon Lucifer
A+ 1954 - Awoken Shiva2445 - 最大の強敵, Raoh2392 - Awoken Freyr1955 - Awoken Lakshmi2443 - 還爪の青龍契士・Ryuune2393 - Awoken Idunn&Idunna2566 - 隔世の蒼龍喚士・Sonia2011 - Awoken Bastet2505 - Awoken Astaroth2012 - Awoken Ra2465 - Ushio & Tora2441 - 裁爪の橙龍契士・Saria2395 - Awoken Thor2447 - 南斗最後の将, Yuria2662 - Awoken Pandora2325 - Awoken Yomi2230 - 気狂いピエロ, Kite
A 2537 - 夢招福神, Horus2511 - Mistress of the Sanctuary, Kali2604 - 鈴蘭最強の男・林田恵2226 - 制約と誓約, Gon Freecss1956 - Awoken Parvati2534 - 紅日の寿龍喚士, Kanna1951 - Tome-Creating White Phantom Demon, Ilm2533 - 遊山の天舞神, Amaterasu Ohkami2324 - Awoken Amaterasu Ohkami2148 - Dawn Sky Sun Dragon Caller, Kanna1901 - 最強装備, Juggler1949 - Lightning Black Dragonbound, Typhon1644 - Arbiter of Judgement, Metatron2592 - Judging Scale Steel Star Goddess, Eschamali2407 - Mistress of the Old Castle, Kali2360 - Mankind's Strongest Soldier, Levi

Subs

Changes from 1/27: None. Cao Cao still not appearing at A+, removing him until they add him back (if ever). 2/2: Pandora added to A+
SS 2511 - Mistress of the Sanctuary, Kali2078 - Blazing Goddess of Power, Kali
S 2265 - Fierce Warrior, Sanada Yukimura2010 - Awoken Isis1747 - Sparkling Goddess of Secrets, Kali2180 - Pacifying Yomi Goddess, Izanami2282 - Placating Founder, Okuninushi2150 - Ominous Moon Dragon Caller, Satsuki2592 - Judging Scale Steel Star Goddess, Eschamali2273 - Deliberate Rebel, Akechi Mitsuhide
A+ 2073 - Awoken Leilan2235 - Avenging War Deity, Ares2074 - Awoken Karin2236 - Psychopomp Commerce Deity, Hermes2443 - 還爪の青龍契士・Ryuune2075 - Awoken Meimei2081 - Divine Creator of Order, Vishnu2509 - 伐爪の緑龍契士, Sylvie2237 - Moon Flower Huntress, Artemis2594 - 抗神機, Ragnarok Dragon2441 - 裁爪の橙龍契士・Saria1887 - 幸七羽毛・ヘッドロココ2533 - 遊山の天舞神, Amaterasu Ohkami2324 - Awoken Amaterasu Ohkami1785 - warrior rose, graceful valkyrie2662 - Awoken Pandora2076 - Awoken Haku2290 - Snow-White Beauty, Valkyrie Claire1644 - Arbiter of Judgement, Metatron2407 - Mistress of the Old Castle, Kali2261 - God of the Night, Tsukuyomi Dragon

The Game8 list

It’s no surprise that Pandora made the leader list, especially since she appears to be similar to Lucifer at first glance, but the real question is why is she ranked lower than him?

It also appears that they aren’t going to make any drastic changes regarding Arena 2. Which is fine, but considering they used to stress the endgame so much it seems a bit strange. It should be interesting to see how skill transfer affects their list.

Leaders
Monster Notes
2662 - Awoken Pandora Thanks to the infinite wisdom of the JP player base, we’ve been blessed with a rather unexciting Awoken Pandora. Yes, she’s obviously good, but her design just seems lazy. Slapping on HP and RCV multipliers to a decent ATK bonus would be a bit more acceptable if Awoken Lucifer wasn’t just released. Sure, Lucifer plays tankier and Pandora’s consecutive burst is impressive, but from a high level they’re too similar for my tastes.

So why did Pandora rank lower than Lucifer? According to Game8’s own blurb — which are rather uninformative, sadly — it looks like being limited to devils is the main drawback. While Pandora misses out on some god-type subs — Yomi Dragon, Okuninushi and Eschamali come to mind — I don’t know if that actually matters as I foresee most players just stacking rows like traditional Hero teams (and there are plenty of good devil row subs). If you really need the utility subs, you can still use them despite not getting the full leader bonus. I don’t know, I don’t see a good reason for the discrepancy. Maybe Lucifer gets the nod for being more flexible and probably more consistent, mainly due to being better against binds.

As far as judging Pandora on her own merits, all I can do is rely on videos out of JP. Black Mist made an Arena 2 video which made the team look pretty good. Perhaps what impressed me the most was when he burst down the PreDras, although a really bad Haku board usually means game over. Her scaling multiplier made it easy to control damage and take down Sopdet and Vishnu. The RCV multiplier is huge, allowing the team to conserve and stall for actives which was a huge weakness for the Heroes. The team has more than enough HP for DQ Hera and more than enough damage for the Kalis. Considering Black Mist’s initial teams usually aren’t fully optimized, it should be interesting to see how the Pandora team develops.

Subs
Monster Notes
Pandora was added to A+. I don’t think I missed it in their original post so they must’ve added it later. Unlike the other tiers, I believe their A+ tier is a dynamically generated table made of all cards with sub scores of 9.0. This would also explain why Cao Cao doesn’t show up in their A+ tier since they still have him at 9.5.

Did I miss something? Please leave a comment and let me know!

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28 thoughts on “Thoughts on the Game8 JP Tier List 2/1/16

  1. I agree with Panda at A+. It’s exactly what I wanted for her… three months ago before Luci was announced. Like, EXACTLY what I predicted, which is weird. (I was thinking 1.35x instead of 1.25x, but I anticipate a buff in the near future.)

    That said, she’s just a bulkier hero now. Which is OK, I guess, seeing as regular Panda was able to clear Arena 1, this just ups the consistency tenfold. I really thought they were going to go big damage though, like 36x for 12 orbs, 1.5x rcv. Like a slightly worse Neptune dragon. IDK. I mean, the rest of the heroes will be the REAL winners, since their awokens will come out after another year of powercreep has passed.

    Anyways, I had a question that probably got buried in the GF roll advice thread, so I figured I’d just repost it:

    Would A.FA.Luci be worth building without Haku or Akechi? I hope to roll them one day, and if the skill transfer works like I hope it does, then I WILL have their actives on my team, albeit as secondary actives, but still. Would a team like AFALuci/Pandora/Persephone/Claire/Eschmaldi be worth considering? Other subs include dupe pandora and Persephone, Okuni I guess, and Castor.

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    • For non-Arena stuff it will be worth it, but I think you really need Akechi for that consistent burst in the Arena. There seem to be plenty of clears without Haku, but almost all teams have Akechi. Not having Yomi Dragon for binds and that second heartmaker will be a huge limiter anyway, but I don’t know how serious you are about Arena.

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    • I wouldn’t get your hopes up too high about the active transfer. Considering how skewed the MP Shop was toward heavy IAP, I’d highly suspect it will be more of the same. GungHo’s current strategy is about sucking it’s current whales dry, not throwing a bone to lesser spenders. We’ll know for sure in about 2-3 weeks, though.

      I’m not sure you’re going to want to stack those actives on your current team considering the transferred active’s cooldown is the sum of the original plus the target creature’s cd. Considering what we know so far, it looks like it’s going to be a way to put utility actives on your regulars and vice versa.

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      • Lol, with GH, I’ve learned to set your hopes so low that they’re easy to meet. I’ve basically resigned to it requiring a special tama from the MP shop that costs 500K MP, AND you need to have both cards pentamaxed, AND it’s only a 20% chance of success. Can’t go much lower than that XD

        Yeah, with regards to Arena, I’ll be running I&I/Ryune for that since I actually have all the right subs. (Except for god danged Hermes. One day…)

        That failing, I’ll be running AAstaroth, since I have all the right subs for THAT. (Except for GOD DANGED Ceres, but I have a replacement in Thumbelina, and the leads are bind-proof, so we should be good)

        That failing, It’s Neptune dragon or BUST. Probably bust since I have Zero Hermes…

        That failing… I’ll just accept my fate as a scrub who will never farm arena, and move on with life.

        Really though, I just want an excuse to use Eschmaldi. I don’t want to buy Yomidra until the next set of MP dragons have all been revealed and disappointed me in one way or another. Especially the blue one, that’s make or break for my MP wallet. Haven’t bought Charite yet, and I’m not sure if I will before seeing the blue guy. Sitting at about 500K MP, and that’s basically the end of my IAP for some time, so it’s gonna be at MAX 2 MP dragons, or 1 MP dragon and Charite. /tangent.

        So, roll Akechi, buy Yomidra, and that’s a solid team?

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        • I actually just looked at the MP Shop on JP and right now Shiva and Ra Dragons are in it with the new rotation. I’m surprised no new dragon was revealed yet. I wonder what that means. Maybe next rotation?

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        • Most teams run Haku or Eschamali for their burst turns, so I guess it comes down to preference. I’ve always been partial to Haku for her synergy with Akechi so I’d probably run her, but I’d try both out to be sure.

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          • Game8’s “ideal team” is Haku Akechi, Okuni, Yomidra for arena2, but who knows how true that really is.

            I think the thing I’m most excited about from the latent skills, is throwing a good gravity (like Zera, or Stratios) on Thothdet for arena 2 yomidra.

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  2. Bah that moment you realize you have TWO FA Lucifer, a Pandora, and no Mitsuhide, Haku, or Eschemali. Or YomiDra. I will cry in the corner. If anybody doesn’t have an FA Lucifer please take my spare.

    Awoken Pandora just feels uninspired….I had hoped she would stand out from FA Lucifer, be different. Instead they feel like they are competing directly against each other. No fun…bleh… I will have to stick to the light side of my box for now and lovingly pet my Apocalypse.

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  3. Damage shields can be pretty demanding for Lucifer but he just has too much else in his favor, from a built-in nuke to God Killer, and a bind clear sub that is both reliable and offensive.

    Lucifer and Yomi Dragon’s random orb changes are well suited to pushing 36x or 16x + rows over the edge to finish a boss. When you add Eschamali into the mix you greatly increase your chances of saving an active or two. All in all it’s extremely economical and what makes these teams versatile beyond their stats. Pandora on paper isn’t bad at all, but she lacks this degree of synergy. Also devils tend to have awful RCV so your total is a bit lower at 5-6k.

    I think it’d take a gradual increase of dangerous non-god type bosses or some hot new devil subs to bring Pandora out of Lucifer’s shadow. Considering this bad timing though I wouldn’t get my hopes up, Gungho tends to favor pushing new gimmicks over rebalancing (it is their business model after all).

    Personally, it bums me out that the two teams are similar, but as someone with a potential future of never rolling Eschamali I’d be more than happy to see more Pandora in practice. I hope she ages better than some of the previous voted evos.

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    • This doesn’t tell me anything I don’t already know. If you want all the reasons Lucifer is considered good, just sub him on the Pandora team (which many Arena 2 clears are already doing). The only binds that really hurt Pandora are ones that hit both leaders of which there are very few preemptive ones in the game. If the bind is that damning, just bring Yomi Dragon who will still do the same amount of damage that it does on a Lucifer team. As for Eschamali, there’s already a clear of Pandora using her so I don’t think you can use that as leverage in the comparison.

      On the other hand, Lucifer’s active is complete garbage and only happens to be good because of a single floor in the Arena 2. That single floor makes his active “good”, but on a Pandora team running him as a sub you don’t have a second one taking up space. Your argument also doesn’t address Pandora’s huge damage advantage which is the trade off for being less tanky.

      So there’s trade offs on both ends. I’m not going to deny Lucifer is better — at least not until I use both teams first hand — but I don’t think it’s as clear as you make it sound.

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      • You seemed to suggest that Pandora is undervalued so I just wanted to point out the tiny bit of extra utility/defensive stats on Lucifer pays off, at least in Arena 2’s case. Sorry if that came off as confrontational or redundant?

        The trade off becomes a positive for Pandora if she can get away with using off-types for just as stable but faster clears. I think it’s that simple, not that Lucifer is strictly better across the board.

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        • My original post pondered why Pandora would be ranked lower than Lucifer. We all have problems with Game8’s list, but if we can discern the potential reasoning behind their decision then maybe we can get a clue about whether one is actually better than the other or if they’re just full of shit (which is the actual point I was getting at). I conceded that Lucifer was probably better, but that I didn’t see any huge gap in power.

          My reply to your comment was to point out that all the points you made in favor of Lucifer are basically irrelevant because Pandora either has the same level of access to it or has a reasonable replacement. Not to mention that I had already covered most of your points in the original post. If there’s anything wrong with my counterargument then I’d love for someone to refute it; there’s no getting to the heart of the issue if we get too diplomatic, either.

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      • Actually, checked again and there’s a 2/3 update adding her to S. So I guess there really is no discrepancy and I was talking in circles.

        It’s just that these tier discussions feel a bit moot when all we’re doing is analyzing videos, reserving judgment, and following JP’s footsteps.

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        • I don’t know what to say about Game8 at this point. Sometimes they move so slowly on things (Liu Bei, Cao Cao) and other times it’s basically the next day. It’s hard to ever take them seriously.

          It might’ve actually been good they ranked her at A+ first because I probably never would’ve cared to look into the differences. I just would’ve been “well, their leader skills and sub pools are basically the same; makes sense to me!”. But they actually do play quite differently and they each have their own strengths and weaknesses. I’m particularly interested in that Pandora Arena 2 build with Lilith in it.

          I mean, all NA discussion on JP content is just a bunch of hot air, but that doesn’t mean we can’t try to glean some information to make better decisions for when the content does hit our servers. If you just take things like this as a mental exercise, at the very least it will make you better at evaluating cards in the future. We have to turn that content delay into a positive somehow. But yes, regarding Lucifer and Pandora it’s mostly meaningless because if you have both you’re likely going to have teams for both as well.

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          • All fair points. In the future I’ll try to have something with more substance when attempting to play devil’s advocate (deeply sorry for the pun).

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  4. Both luci/pandora like peas in a pod at this point with pretty marginal differences, but that also means we need to hypermax both to accurately compare the 2 and see who is actually better. It just seems borderline irrelevant since we’ll probably hyper both

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    • If you’re looking for purely ideal, then that’s Akechi who pretty much supplants her spot on any endgame dark teams.

      Also, it looks like they added her to their A+ tier. I don’t think that was there before.

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