Thoughts on the Game8 JP Tier List 2/3/16

Leads

Changes from 2/1: Awoken Pandora A+→S
SS 2259 - Sun God, Ra Dragon2261 - God of the Night, Tsukuyomi Dragon
S 2253 - Destroyer God, Shiva Dragon2255 - Sea Deity, Neptune Dragon2389 - Awoken Sakuya2013 - Awoken Anubis2507 - Awoken Archdemon Lucifer2662 - Awoken Pandora
A+ 1954 - Awoken Shiva2445 - 最大の強敵, Raoh2392 - Awoken Freyr1955 - Awoken Lakshmi2443 - 還爪の青龍契士・Ryuune2393 - Awoken Idunn&Idunna2566 - 隔世の蒼龍喚士・Sonia2011 - Awoken Bastet2505 - Awoken Astaroth2012 - Awoken Ra2465 - Ushio & Tora2441 - 裁爪の橙龍契士・Saria2395 - Awoken Thor2447 - 南斗最後の将, Yuria2325 - Awoken Yomi2230 - 気狂いピエロ, Kite
A 2537 - 夢招福神, Horus2511 - Mistress of the Sanctuary, Kali2604 - 鈴蘭最強の男・林田恵2226 - 制約と誓約, Gon Freecss1956 - Awoken Parvati2534 - 紅日の寿龍喚士, Kanna1951 - Tome-Creating White Phantom Demon, Ilm2533 - 遊山の天舞神, Amaterasu Ohkami2324 - Awoken Amaterasu Ohkami2148 - Dawn Sky Sun Dragon Caller, Kanna1901 - 最強装備, Juggler1949 - Lightning Black Dragonbound, Typhon1644 - Arbiter of Judgement, Metatron2592 - Judging Scale Steel Star Goddess, Eschamali2407 - Mistress of the Old Castle, Kali2360 - Mankind's Strongest Soldier, Levi

Subs

Changes from 2/1: None.
SS 2511 - Mistress of the Sanctuary, Kali2078 - Blazing Goddess of Power, Kali
S 2265 - Fierce Warrior, Sanada Yukimura2010 - Awoken Isis1747 - Sparkling Goddess of Secrets, Kali2180 - Pacifying Yomi Goddess, Izanami2282 - Placating Founder, Okuninushi2150 - Ominous Moon Dragon Caller, Satsuki2592 - Judging Scale Steel Star Goddess, Eschamali2273 - Deliberate Rebel, Akechi Mitsuhide
A+ 2073 - Awoken Leilan2235 - Avenging War Deity, Ares2074 - Awoken Karin2236 - Psychopomp Commerce Deity, Hermes2443 - 還爪の青龍契士・Ryuune2075 - Awoken Meimei2081 - Divine Creator of Order, Vishnu2509 - 伐爪の緑龍契士, Sylvie2237 - Moon Flower Huntress, Artemis2594 - 抗神機, Ragnarok Dragon2441 - 裁爪の橙龍契士・Saria1887 - 幸七羽毛・ヘッドロココ2533 - 遊山の天舞神, Amaterasu Ohkami2324 - Awoken Amaterasu Ohkami1785 - warrior rose, graceful valkyrie2662 - Awoken Pandora2076 - Awoken Haku2290 - Snow-White Beauty, Valkyrie Claire1644 - Arbiter of Judgement, Metatron2407 - Mistress of the Old Castle, Kali2261 - God of the Night, Tsukuyomi Dragon

The Game8 list

It’s times like these that I want to stop these Game8 posts. I don’t know what’s worse: that they would misevaluate Pandora at A+ or that they’d so easily retract their original opinion and move her to S.

To clarify, whether they’re right or wrong with this change is irrelevant because, yes, opinions are opinions. What I want from any source is a certain level of assurance that their opinion is well researched and reflects their best effort was put forth to develop said opinion. Releasing an opinion the same day of a card’s release then revising it a couple days later does not inspire confidence in their opinion. It smells of them making a knee-jerk opinion then following it up with another one. What actually happened here is irrelevant because not only will we never know, it’s the appearances that matter because it affects how I perceive all of their opinions. Game8 has had a dubious reputation for a while now, but something like this particularly disappoints me. Who’s to say that this new grade was well researched? Who’s to say any of their opinions are well researched? Well, this may just be me making a mountain out of a molehill, but these Game8 posts have been questionable for a while so I’ll take any excuse to end them.

Anyone have some suggestions for other tier lists? I’ve been kinda following GameWith and they seem okay, but they don’t seem to update very often. I know there were some other sites, but I never bookmarked them. I guess in the end they’re all basically the same.

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37 thoughts on “Thoughts on the Game8 JP Tier List 2/3/16

  1. The game8 tier list has been pretty bad for a while, honestly I wouldn’t care at all if you just dropped tier lists entirely.

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  2. Tier lists are imperfect lists written by imperfect people with experiences with the game that don’t always dovetail with what the majority of the playerbase will experience. They are still an interesting indicator of leaders with tried-and-sometimes-true endgame potential, but the sub lists I more or less ignore because subs are tied to leaders–for example Thor x Saria is A+ but some of their amazing subs, Venus, Wukong, Apocalypse, Da Qiao, Apollo, etc., do not make the sub list. Yet a sub tier list exclusively for Thor x Saria would definitely have those units high up in like A+, maybe even S for a few of them.

    I think they are interesting to still display whenever they update. I don’t personally visit Game8’s site and so am dependent on what you post 🙂 However, detailed thoughts and writeups I don’t know if they are necessary given how much time it must take you to write them. This is a tier list formed by the opinions of a few people. So it is an opinion. Whether it is carefully and informatively made or not it is an opinion regardless and should be treated as such, rather than an end-all-be-all.

    I still think Awoken Pandora is incredibly uninspired though. I might actually prefer her uuevo depending on what they unveil. I have zero good Pandora subs.

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    • My disappointment doesn’t stem from them being right or wrong, because obviously everything is an opinion, it’s that they would first publish an opinion the same day as the release of the card then change it only a couple days later. It’s basically a reflection of not doing their homework; I don’t think anyone would’ve cared if they took a week or so to develop an actual opinion with actual research. So if they revise their review only 2 days later, who’s to say that this new grade is well researched or if they just gave in to popular opinion. All you can really ask for is their best effort and at the very least this reflects poorly in that respect.

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  3. I definitely enjoy your analysis on the game8 lists. Regardless of how accurate they are, it gives a good basis for discussion. I don’t read their site and your posts around the updated tier lists have clued me into buffs that I might have otherwise missed.

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  4. I enjoy your analysis as well setsu. In all sincerity, why don’t you make your own tier list? You do have the credibility and knowledge just as much as any of them. And it’s your own blog, we’re here for your opinion.

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    • If knew this rant would turn into fuel for asking me to create my own tier list, I wouldn’t have made it lol. But really, I think my time is better spent doing other things. If for some reason I decide to make some type of tier list, I’d do my best to make it resemble a tier list the least amount possible.

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  5. I would like if if you could make a tier list of your own, and call it

    “Setsu’s Tier List”

    There wouldn’t have to be any pretty pictures, just a list of leaders and subs you think are strong and why you think so. I’m sure many of us respect your opinions, and being able to see it like that would be great.

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  6. Them giving a release-day rating in itself is already a sign that they aren’t really doing their homework whether they end up revising it or not, I guess. (Though it would be even more worrying if they _had_ released their first update a week after release only to revise it shortly later.)

    That said, It’s interesting seeing your criticism of their rating followed by their change matching it to the conclusion you arrived to. Maybe that just means that ratings for cards that haven’t had time to be tested should be viewed more critically? (In contrast to something like the initial Yomidra upgrade to SS which ended up being more meaningful.)
    Though that could just mean that there’s not much value in bothering with it regularly then if most of their changes end up being more like the former than the latter.

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    • Yup, you summed it up pretty well. Them changing their rating to match my opinion (which is based only on secondhand knowledge) doesn’t mean anything; what I want is for them to post an opinion they are confident about and can stick to even in the face of criticism. Like… I was already wary of their opinions, but this kinda struck a nerve with me. I know the temptation to release a something quickly, but I hold back to make sure the post has at least a modicum of quality control. Hopefully they take more time to make an informed decision in the future.

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  7. Please dont do an own tier list!
    You have a tendency to do statistical write-ups of your runs and to do a list with this kind of precision is not possible for one person. You need too much data for a good team evaluation.
    I also think you are too hard with game8. They are, at best, a bunch of people writing for a website and analyzing the current top player streams.
    Yeah, its annoying to see them make such major fuckups like Pandora, but they are only humans and i bet their evaluation process went like this: So… Pandora, lower stats, no god killer, she will be good but not luci good.
    They are a major outlet, they NEED to write something very fast or their audience will move on.

    IF we want to have a western “best team” list, its better to use this website: http://www.pad-builder.com
    Because its not nearly enough having an S or SS leader. You really need to have the whole team to achieve SS feats…

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    • You pretty much sum up why I’ve never seriously thought about doing it. The amount of work involved to do it properly, to my satisfaction, would be daunting.

      Also, I don’t think I’m too hard on Game8 at all. They have a long history of stupid shit. Most of which you can’t take too serious “because opinions”, but when you do things that bring the legitimacy of those opinions into question then it really devalues the worth of the content. Usually they wait a week or so before adding new leaders; I don’t see why they couldn’t just do the same for Pandora. In the big picture it means little, but in the context of this post series it means a lot.

      PADBuilder barely gets a pass right now because it has some use as a team building tool. The actual data is quite lacking at the moment, but it should be interesting to see where it goes with more time and more input.

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  8. Yeah, they should have waited with pandaro, they just did a quick shot…
    I just named Padbuilder because i think it has potential. But only if we would be able to craft teams our self and publishing them…

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    • Yeah, it does have a lot of potential. What would be amazing would be if it could analyze your PADherder and rank/tier your leads based on the subs you had for said lead.

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      • I think this should be no problem, it already can a sort of this thing. You can enter your padherder account name and it greys out leads you dont have and shows you if you can build those teams

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        • Yeah, but that just shows you the opinion of whoever is running the site and doesn’t take into consideration the subs you actually have in your box. Even within the same tier it doesn’t differentiate which team could be better based on the subs you have. There would need to be some type of algorithm that weighed the importance of each sub as well as things like +eggs and such. Taking user input into consideration would further complicate things.

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          • I could and am interested in programming this… But don’t have the game knowledge. (Just another shitty whale)

            This idea bears further thought.

            I can say for sure that is there was a math weighting available, I could easily make a tool that told you the best team you could make.

            If anybody is interested let me know

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            • I’d try to get in contact with the person running PADBuilder. I might be off-base, but I got the feeling that he was going to start taking user suggestions on team builds and such, so that site may have the data to do sub weighting based off that input in the future. It’d be quite the task to create weights without community input, I think.

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  9. I appreciate your analysis of all the games content, this word press is one of my go to pages for pad chat but I have to agree with raiod; don’t make your own. As it is obvious from game8 and gamewith updating too fast or slow are both exercises in futility. I generally agree with the rankings but there are clear discrepancies that just can not be remedied by making new lists. A best possible outcome would be a tier list of all leaders instead of flavour of the month additions and changes, but this would probably result in an SS+ tier, an SS+- tier, an SS tier and so forth which would really be helpful. My suggestion would be to use this as a spring board for discussion and do with leads what you frequently do with subs and suggest alternative placements or leads that in particular you disagree with their placement.

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  10. Honestly, this just seems lazy. I’m fine with tier placement and all, but not giving any proper explaination feels like shilling more than anything.

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  11. I don’t have a problem with this change over some others because they just retracted their opinion after seeing Pandora in action. While I agree that its preferable if they gave an estimate in an analysis post before putting her in the tier list (After some research and waiting a couple days) , at least there is a reason for her change this time.

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    • Why even publish an opinion if it’s uninformed? It’s unprofessional and lessens their credibility which was already suspect to begin with. Also, we don’t actually know the reason for their change; you’re just making assumptions, much like they did with their original rating. Maybe they had a good reason for putting her at A+, but gave in to popular opinion.

      GameWith puts new candidates for their tier list in a holding tank before adding it to the actual list. This is a much better method.

      I understand that to many people this doesn’t seem like a big deal, and in isolation it really isn’t, but I’ve been following this list in detail for almost 8 months now and have documented their crap. This is just the straw that broke the camel’s back.

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  12. Hey there Setsu, I was wondering if I could get some insight: Right now, I have that vanilla Yomidra arena team pentamaxed (Yomidra/Okuni/A.Haku/Stratios) and need some help on the transition to Arena 2.

    With A.Pandora, I now have an extra team to branch off into. However between the three of Yomidra, A.Luci, and A.Pandora, A.Luci looks to be the best option for Arena 2. Do you think that is the case without Eschamali? I have every dark sub barring her, which team do you think would net me the most consistent Arena 2 clears? Also, the team compositions I’ve looked at all vary, has there been a consensus for the optimal Dark teams for Arena 2 like the Ra Dragon one?

    On a side note, I’ve been blessed with my 3rd Rodin this Godfests, does this open up any new compositions to me for 10x descends?

    Cheers and thanks in advance~!

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    • At this point I don’t have much of a better idea than you since I’m reliant on secondhand information. Yomi Dragon seems to have fallen out of favor for Arena 2 since it needs to make sacrifices to live through the DQ Hera preemptive, although this may drastically change with the active transfer system (like I think evolsir brought up transferring a gravity to Thoth & Sopdet which is the type of thing you should be thinking about for the future). Lucifer and Pandora from a high level are basically the same team since they use the same subs. So which one you use will come down to personal preference: do you want more tank/utility or more burst? There appear to be plenty of clears with both with and without Eschamali. Dark is in such a good place right now that many of the parts are interchangeable, so no, I don’t think there are any optimal teams. Once again, it probably comes down to preference.

      Just want to add that I’m not sure you should be worrying too much about Arena 2, at least until the details of the active transfer are revealed. In the game’s current state, this doesn’t seem like a dungeon you’re going to want to try to farm.

      I don’t think the third ROdin is relevant for 10x. The main push button targets, Goemon, Zeus and maybe Valk, only need 2 ROdins at most.

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    • Yes, the Black Mist video was mentioned in the previous Game8 post. I don’t know about Grisar, but you probably do want an orb change on the quicker side. Is it better than just another Pandora though? Not sure.

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      • Grisar was loaded up with atk latents, and was the only card on team that broke the 10m for pre-dras. He’s there because of his absurd base atk stat. though I am pretty sure lucifer or lilith is better overall.

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      • How many Akechi are generally considered to be worth pii’ing? I have 3 and I don’t know if it’s worth max skill more than 2 outside of 5×4 row teams. Even if when the dog skill up comes it’s a rare drop I believe so it does avoid a farming headache right?

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        • I’d only do one. What will you ever need more than one for unless you have a Typhon team (which will only want two anyways). And by the time his uevo comes out, there’s a pretty good chance he’ll get voted into the survey dungeon.

          About the skill up fodder, Badpys are too valuable. I already need 12 for Lucifer and 2 Pandoras. Obviously chasing the rare materials is not fun, but it’s better than using Pys, so unless you’re swimming in Badpys (like 20+) I wouldn’t do it. In the end it’s your choice, though.

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  13. Hi Setsu,
    I just want to say that I really appreciate these tier list posts and I hope that you keep it up in some form. I don’t mind if the list is not wholly accurate, or if it is constructed lazily. Mostly, I am just interested in getting an idea of which leads are popular, their power levels +/- one tier, and their strengths/weaknesses. The combination of your discussion with their tier list is the best window NA has into what top players JP players think about the state of the game and why. When you disagree with the tier list it often gives food for thought or perspective that cannot be found in any other English pad source.

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