JP Aggregate Leader List β
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As could be anticipated with the recent stream updates and Bleach Collab, there were plenty of changes in the past couple of days which made this a good time to test out my script again. Game8 made some significant changes, handing out demotions to meta staples. There’s now a clear line between the top and the rest of the rabble: those without an RCV multiplier will languish.
Having only two entries at tier 2 is somewhat concerning, but I’m still going to wait a while to see how it turns out once the rest of the lists catch up with their updates.
Updates going forward: I’m contemplating running these posts weekly on Monday evenings. JP uevo updates usually go live on Fridays so that should give them three good days to marinate. Pad-Plus also updates their popularity list Sundays so I can pull in that list while it’s still fresh. Of course, collabs usually go live on Mondays, so in the case of there being impactful cards I’ll consider doing a mid-week post.
JP Aggregate Leader List β Changes of Note
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Change: 2➞3
This change is a good example of the weakness of the aggregate list and tier lists in general. Sakuya is clearly better than almost all other options in tier 3, but the binning ranges don’t allow that to be reflected. I considered adding another tier to increase the granularity, but after thinking about it I feel things are fine as they are. It would only tarnish the integrity of the list by being results-oriented (assuming there was any integrity to be had with a tier list in the first place), but I actually like how the tiers have played out this week. |
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Change: 2➞3
No one will argue Anubis’s damage potential, but this is where he has belonged for a long time due to his inconsistency. With all the time extends nowadays it’s not even really about skill, it’s that you can’t activate him on most boards. |
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Change: Removed from ❀
This is another example of Game8’s auto-generated A-tier not reflecting what the maintainers of the list want; Bouya should still be at A. |
New Card Holding Tank
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Ranked Sites: Game8 (A+)
Rukia is making combo gods like Anubis, Bastet, Shiva, and Yomi look quite silly. Eight combos is demanding for most players, but seven combos still puts you at Bastet levels of damage — and you get 1.5x RCV on top of it. |
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Ranked Sites: Game8 (A+)
Unlike Gadius, Typhon has always been a solid endgame leader and his uevo only solidifies his place. Also, unlike Gadius, you can both clear binds and fully activate in the same turn. |
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Ranked Sites: Game8 (A+)
As expected, Ichigo is one of the top leaders in the game, but isn’t quite as impressive as it might’ve seemed. Watching videos for him is hilarious: the healing animation will jump from like 2k → 3k → 4k → 5k → 50k. |
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Ranked Sites: Game8 (A)
Game8 has always had a hard-on for Gadius, but I’m not convinced he’s all that much better than before. |
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Ranked Sites: AppMedia (A+)
I can’t say I agree with AppMedia’s ratings of all the Hero uuevos. They’re very strong, but leaders without HP and/or RCV multipliers and top out at an orb-hungry 25x ATK seem to be at an extreme disadvantage. Today’s endgame just puts so much emphasis on utility and resilience, something that these Hero teams will struggle with. I feel they’re outclassed by almost everything else in the AppMedia A+ tier. |
Jump to: Game8 | GameWith | AppMedia | Pad-Plus
Game8
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I had actually already published this post, then I realized Game8 had updated their list again. They had temporarily demoted Shiva Dragon to A+ (which I agreed with), but for some reason took it back. They also flipped Gadius to A+ and back to A and had Ichigo at S instead of A+. I mean, I kind of understand that they want to get their changes out ASAP, but it still annoys me that they can’t just wait to formulate a real opinion before publishing it. The whole Shiva Dragon thing stinks something fierce.
Game8 Changes of Note
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Change: S➞A+
This goes for Anubis, too: There’s now a clear delineation between S and A+ leaders: if you don’t have an RCV multiplier you’re at a severe disadvantage. Assuming skill inheritance isn’t prohibitive, bind immunity also becomes slightly less of an advantage. |
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Change: A➞A+
As I speculated last time, Game8’s original rating was too low. After seeing what Paprika and Reco can do with her, I’m thinking she might be deserving of S. |
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Change: A+➞A
You’re breaking my heart. Please explain to me why Shiva is still ranked A+? |
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Change: A+➞A
Yuria is still extremely strong, but with Typhon getting his upgrades and Awoken Pandora as a sub, there’s very few reasons why she’d be ranked higher. |
Jump to: Game8 | GameWith | AppMedia | Pad-Plus
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GameWith failed to update before this update, but they appear to be more deliberate with their updates which is something I can appreciate. If they take too long, though, I may have to reconsider the weight of their influence on the list.
Jump to: Game8 | GameWith | AppMedia | Pad-Plus
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AppMedia updated just before the Bleach Collab went live, so I expect those updates to come out later this week.
AppMedia Changes of Note
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Change: Added to A+
Game8’s ratings for the uuevo Heroes put them just short of A+ on their list, so it’s not like AppMedia’s A+ is outlandish, but I just don’t see the incentive for using them as leaders. Although I’m glad that straight row burst teams now have halfway decent lead options. It’s interesting to note that only Wukong was put at A. Is the stigma of being the worst Hero still true? Or is he possibly better now? Amusingly, before Awoken Pandora he might’ve been the most relevant Hero lead due to the Scarlet farming team. |
Jump to: Game8 | GameWith | AppMedia | Pad-Plus
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The question for next week is: will it be Ichigo and Rukia at #1 and #2 and in what order?
For details on the aggregation method or each Japanese site used, refer to this page (I’m hoping to make this page in the near future).
Setsu's PAD Blog 
What do you see as the weaknesses of Ichigo?
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It’s not so much that he’s weak — he’s very, very strong — but that all rainbow leads live in the shadow of Ra Dragon.
To get into more detail, no matter how good Ichigo’s 76x is, it’s still only a virtual half of Ra Dragon’s 144x. This means Ichigo will still need mostly dark-main subs to do consistent damage. That first Arena 2 clear video I saw had great damage, but compared to Ra Dragon it seemed like a struggle. This soft element restriction also means Ichigo’s sub pool is more restricted.
6.25x vs 2.25x RCV isn’t a huge difference when you only have about 30k HP to heal in the first place.
Ichigo’s active is obviously better, but I think people seriously underestimate how good Ra Dragon’s active is.
Then there are a lot of other smaller, more obvious things like Ichigo needing an active use and not being bind immune. But conversely, he has a SBR and God Killer.
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I’m not as surprised that Sakuya dropped down a tier but I figured since most of her best subs are healers, she doesn’t really need that RCV multiplier although it would help.
I guess outside of RCV, it seems that damage control is also extremely valued. Its crazy how these tiers/meta changes so fast
I recently just evo’d Luci and wow, I’m torn between which team is more fun to use.. Saria/Thor or Awoken Luci/Panda, these high HP/RCV teams makes difficult dungeons so much less stressful
Thanks for the post, Setsu!
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I had exactly the same thought, though I guess if you are gonna be healer heavy, probably could use an hp multi instead(See A Asta).
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First, thanks for the post!
I’m at a loss on what combo or match-X leads regard, so I find hard to judge ASakuya or Rukia, but after managing to heal almost all my life back in spite of two rows of poison and two 3 hearts combo (with ALucifer) I do recognise the power of RCV multipliers. It’s such a lifesaver. I thought that Kirin’s crazy damage and natural high RCV would compensate it, but I guess not.
Thanks to him, I managed to fully clear a Descended Challenge for the first time ever with a team that has still a long way to go (almost unskilled, for starters). I’m looking forward to test him on Challenge Dungeons, but JP hasn’t gotten one for quite a while.
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What A Luci team were you running that could clear the entire descended challenge?
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I used:
ALuci (hypermax) / D/D Haku (Max level, +297, but not fully skilled up) / Akechi (Max level, skill level 1, around +100) / Uevo Pandora (Max level, skill level 1, no plus eggs) / Akechi (he was around level 84 for most dungeons, maxed him for the last. Skill level 1) / ALuci (hypermax)
I didn’t need to change subs for any dungeon, although I thought about it a couple times. If you are careful, you can handle well enough the team’s one weakness, binds, without a dedicated sub and between Pandora and the two Luci leads there are enough RCV in spite of it being a devil team.
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Well, it’s not just RCV, you have to consider the full picture. A predominately physical/devil team with a 2.25x RCV multiplier will have just as much if not more RCV than Sakuya while also easily hitting 30k+ HP. This not only opens the door for resist latents to meet HP thresholds, but means you don’t have to dedicate a sub slot to a damage shield.
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That’s true, yes. Lately anything with average HP (20k) isn’t competitive anymore… Perhaps she should get a HP buff, as Quasi said, to keep her into relevancy. Given how are her fans, I doubt they will accept it if she falls out of meta…
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2x HP/Attack/RCV multiplier for healers, lets goo lol
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I also forgot to comment how curious I find that Juggler has managed to stay up there at “2” until now, with all the changes that the meta has suffered. I started playing after Juggler was a thing, but I’ve listened to stories about how he was what put into movement the power creep. It tells something about how far ahead he was for his times that he is still part of the top tier leads.
That aside, I’m getting lately the feeling that the new Awokens are not power creeping, and rather bridging the gap between MP dragons and your average REM monsters. It’s clear (and I’m thankful for it) that they don’t pretend to raise the ceiling any further for now.
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“3”, my bad.
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There’s a good chance Juggler gets an ultimate this year. I think the only thing keeping him afloat for so long was his bind immunity and now that he gets Awoken Pandora, he’ll probably stick around for a bit longer.
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Hey Setsu,
Could I please get your thoughts on the following 2 team comps for shiva dragon? I’m particularly puzzled as to who I should +egg first since there are so many potential options. As of now, I have shiva dragon + 1 ares hypermaxed.
Ares/Ares/Yamato/Uriel (your standard)
Ares/Ares/Set/Urd (One I’m experimenting with and liking. Set is a beast with a single tpa and urd -> set combo is deadly)
Ares/Rvalk/Sanada/Urd (GameWith + Game8’s template)
Could you please explain why you think ares/ares/yamato/uriel is the way to go? I’m also curious to hear your logic behind not bringing a board changer since it seems to be a useful tool in the harder content.
It looks like with the upcoming patch and yamato’s super evo, he seems even more solid than before. With the upcoming changes on it’s way, are you going to be switching your comp at all or do you still believe ares/ares/yamato/uriel is the way to go?
A lot of people seem to like Sanada as well with Urd (like haku + akechi combo on yomi dragon) but I’m not too sure yet. Until new evos come out for them, I feel like their awakenings are pretty horrible.
I’d love to hear your thoughts. Thanks!
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I really only think of Shiva Dragon as a farming team and I believe I’ve only referred to the team in that context. The Ares / Ares / Yamato / Uriel team is just a template for farming that gets modified to fit the dungeon. When you really want to optimize sometimes none of them make the final cut, like for Kanetsugu, but that’s my favored team for general use.
It sounds like you want to use Shiva Dragon for endgame content which I have little experience with (and wouldn’t necessarily recommend). One of the original Shiva Dragon Arena 1 clears used Urd + Sanada (+ light Freyr) to deal with the Kalis, so basically you want that combination for dungeons that require burst, but where you also need to heal.
There are very few instances where you need a board change while farming.
Sanada and Urd are both great, but +egging them depends on how much you plan on using them. Sanada’s one of the best subs in the game regardless of his awakenings.
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Wow, big changes this week. Game 8 dropping Kirin and Anubis from S… bold move. I’m hoping that they don’t flip flow with their tiers or anything like that, because they just drew a line for what qualifies as an end game lead, and if they double back they’ll lose all credibility. Er, what credibility they had left that is. 😛
Shivagon should have stayed at A+. Meh. I don’t think that he can keep up with the cool kids at S. Soon he’ll get demoted for real. Soon…
Lakshmi down AGAIN? REALLY? I mean, what’s changed? *Sigh*
Rukia though, she’s pretty darn good. I like her a lot. Not expecting her to come to NA, and I don’t have any Scheats, but if she ends up here, she will be mine.
Side note, I went like 4/30 baby TAMAs today. RNG’s a bitch. Last time I went like, 12/20 though, so it DOES even out over time. Still hurts though.
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I’d really like to know why they flipflopped on Shiva Dragon. Then again I probably don’t because it’s probably stupid.
I don’t understand the disrespect for Lakshmi.
I knew yesterday’s data download wouldn’t include Bleach, but I still got a little sad when UPC confirmed it. Maybe I am getting my hopes up after all.
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Gonna assume that they were afraid of the consequences of dropping Kirin AND shivagon in the same week. 😛
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I may be wrong here, but I think the continual disrespect for Lakshimi is because of the fairly random confusion of awakenings she has and the fact that Lakshimi is getting quite old.
However, I personally haven’t used Lakshimi yet, (I have one), and looking at YuriPAD’s channel on YouTube really tempts me. Lakshimi still lacks enough oomph to catch up to leaders like Yomi and Sakuya, but Lakshimi’s potential is still the same. As Setsu did say about Rukia, having a RCV multiplier in a element that naturally has a ton of HP is amazing, as this means stalling isn’t a problem, and defence cards aren’t really needed.
In all, Lakshimi may be old, but she’s still part of the front lines of the element that is steadily growing stronger (water).
For Shiva Dragon, the demotion can be quite detrimental to the amazing leader’s reputation, but there are a few aspects of Shiva dragon that in my opinion that make the demotion justifiable, (the active)
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Forgot a few things
Lakshimi’s active, while useful, is really more of a niche card for her own team, to heal and to help out with activation, which means Lakshimi falters as sub, (may be another reason for the disrespect).
But Lakshimi’s possible damage output is still insane, even YuriPAD cleared Arena 1 with Lakshimi.
As, a matter of fact, when GungHo buffed Lakshimi’s leader skill, Game8 and other tier lists should’ve promoted Lakshimi and have her stay there.
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None of this addresses the core issue of why Shiva is continuously ranked higher. They can put her where ever they want, but it’s not like Shiva is significantly better than Lakshmi or Parvati.
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Now, don’t get me wrong. Lakshmi’s not /quite/ up to snuff to be top tier, and I’m at the point where I’m OK with her being demoted… but there are SO MANY cards at A+ that are weaker than her that it really bugs me. Setsu mentioned Shiva. Like, HOW is HE still relevant but Lakshmi isn’t? She out-damages him, out-tanks him, and has more impressive clears to her name. (co-op 0 stone of Mecha Hera for example.)
If there were a reasonable explanation, OK, I’d be fine.But being demoted is kinda silly when… I was gonna name a few more, but Shiva’s the only one that Lakshmi directly outclasses. (Maybe Bastet.) I still think she can go toe to toe with most of them.
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I love these posts! Thank you for making them.
Gahhhh Kirin…seems like we were just celebrating her awoken.
Poor Zuoh. Doggy gets a little bone (uevo), still doesn’t get to sit at the table.
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The Sakuya move was quite bold. Definitely didn’t expect Game8 to do that, nor do I expect the other lists to follow suit.
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These tier lists are starting to smell like shit too much lately. The thing that concerns me the most is what do these sites use to evaluate the leaders? It doesn’t seem like it’s consistency at clearing the highest difficulty leveled content, if it was so ShivaDra should’ve been at A+ months ago and maybe even A by now. And ASakuya being evaluated at the same level as the likes of Juggler, Shiva, Cloud etc.? Lakshmi on the same level as Ilm? As DMeta? As Kanna? Preposterous. I realize I may seem salty and frankly, I am. I would really appreciate it if you’ve started making your own tier list, because then we could have more clarity and have some real discussions about the state of the game.
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If you’re referring to the aggregate list in general, there are still some tweaks I can do to the scoring calculations to make things seem more like “they should”, but I’m trying to avoid being results-oriented for now. I’m actually not displeased with the current distribution, though. There will always be nitpicks with any tier list and my aggregate list is no exception.
Yeah, there’s no way I’m going to do my own tier list. It’s way, way, way too much work to do correctly and even if it could be done correctly, it’s questionable if it would even be worth it.
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Not the aggregation itself, even if there are mistakes it would be too much work for someone to find them. I have a problem with the source material and by what measure are the monsters actually evaluated.
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Is there going to be an aggregate sub list as well Sets?
On another note, Awoken Panda is out wooooo!
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No, only Game8 has the balls (or stupidity) to put out a sub list. I’m hoping PADBuilder can eventually fill that role.
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Thinking about Game8’s placement of ult Gadius, A tier makes sense. Despite no skill boosts, SBR, nor HP/RCV multipliers, he’s at least as good as (though likely better than) Juggler at this point. A+ tier though… dubious.
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From the looks of it, AppMedia rating for the UUEVO Hero seems to come from the fact that they are good for beginner due to easier evolution, translation wise.
I guess the mp shop also comes to play…
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I see that neptune dragon is very highly rated on multiple sites, but I’m having a hard time figuring out what team people are using to clear things like ultimate arena; nothing seems to show up on youtube or a google search, anyway. Although blue sonia is lower ranked, there is a ton of information out there. Sorry that I may just be clueless, but does anyone know the ideal Nepdra team? Is Blue Sonia actually better for the arena?
Thanks!
(I’ve got a lot of blue subs sitting bored in my box now: Blue Sonia, Awoken I&I, Viper Orochi, 2 andromedas, a hatsume. I feel like they should go to something!)
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There probably isn’t much information because it’s basically “your best water things” which should probably include a few cards from Hermes, Karin, Andromeda and Gabriel. The best thing about Neptune Dragon compared to other MP Dragons is you aren’t constricted to gods to get the full ATK bonus. BSonia might be comparable for Arena 1, but Neptune Dragon is much better for Arena 2 if only for his poison (of all things).
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Thanks! Guess I’ll try to assemble some kind of team with my gobs of +eggs from this event and see what works out.
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I have a question about end game leads. Would you agree that, aside from pretty much requiring a strong damage multiplier, the best bonus to have is a multiplier to HP because it will allow you to reach thresholds easier? Though this isn’t to say that a RCV doesn’t help.
And somewhat related, if these multipliers are important, then why should any leader (like Bastet, Anubis, and Kirin) that doesn’t have any multiplier other than damage/atk be ranked highly, regardless of how high their atk multiplier is? Aren’t there other leaders with high atk multipliers who do have hp or rcv? Or is there a point at which a very high atk multiplier outweighs even a leader with a decent atk multiplier and rcv or hp multiplier? (e.g. Kenshiro)
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No, HP doesn’t even come close to RCV. HP is nice, but it’s fairly useless if you can’t heal it back. Just think about about it: why do you think the MP Dragons are the best leaders in the game?
Uh, they aren’t ranked highly anymore. Anything without a decent ATK multiplier along with an RCV multiplier isn’t ranked high. Did you even look at the aggregate tier list? Tier lists aside it should be fairly obvious to reach this conclusion just from the MP Dragons dominating.
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It makes me sad but I agree with Yuria’s demotion on game8. She has power and heals well but requires too many orbs and has too little HP to stall for them.
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