Thoughts on the Tentative PCGF Voting Results (Spring 2016)

2592 - Judging Scale Steel Star Goddess, EschamaliSimilar to last time, NA did a great job voting. Outside maybe Yomi, I wouldn’t consider any of the top votes unworthy of selection. It’s also clear that a good portion of the voters keep track of what’s happening on JP.

However, I do wish less 6-stars made it in. Using the tentative voting results, there will be eight 6-star GFEs out of the 25 featured gods (32%). There’s also speculation that Sherias and Baldin will debut — much like Saria and Ryune last time — bringing the 6-star share to about 35%. By comparison, the typical godfest has about 29-31 featured gods with about 9-10 being 6-stars (29-32%). While the 6-star percentage is similar, the PCGF is slated to have horrible rates due to having less featured gods with the same portion of 6-stars; for those that don’t know, the more featured gods there are, it actually increases the chance of landing one of them, although it doesn’t change the chances of rolling a specific card (correct me if I’m wrong if this is no longer the case, but we’ve only had two-pantheon godfests for a while now so it would be difficult to identify a change in rates). The poor rates could have been helped if fewer 6-stars were voted in. However, if NA follows suit with JP’s last PCGF — which the top 25 limit seems to indicate — the 4x rates will make this complaint moot. Let’s hope they follow through even though it isn’t our 4-year anniversary yet; if they don’t, this PCGF will be a huge letdown. Either way, though, the fewer 6-stars there are the better the rates will be, but I doubt players’ preoccupation with them will ever change despite that. Personally, the 6-stars are great since that’s all I need, but for the average player there’s more value if there’s less of them.

Anyways, I’ll once again go over the best and worst of the voting. Which was actually pretty difficult this time since I didn’t have much issue with the results and the voting was so tight. Just remember that these are just superficial opinions and I encourage you to let me know about any differences in opinion in the comments.

Best Monster

Winner: DKali
1587 - Goddess of Power, Kali Unlike the previous PCGF where DKali was the undisputed best card in the game, it’s not so clear cut this time. While she’s still the overall best, uh, DKali board change in the game, the fact that there are so many other good options — such as Lightning, Ragnarok Dragon and the soon to come Sherias Roots — on top of skill inheritance, this means that she’s more easily replaceable, lowering her value. That being said, she’s still the only one for Ra Dragon, giving her an advantage over the competition and all other cards in general.
Runner Up: Akechi
2272 - Akechi Mitsuhide If picking the best monster was difficult, picking the runner up was even more so. Akechi is still in his prime as a sub — and will probably never leave it, especially if he gets an anticipated uevo this year — but the fact that Yomi Dragon is no longer an elite leader lowers his value compared to other top subs. However, nothing can replace his orb change + orb enhance active on the teams that need him; and there are plenty of great teams that do. The other cards that I could have chosen instead were: Raphael, Orochi, Isis, and Pandora.

Worst Monster

Winner: Yomi
140 - Yomi I haven’t considered Awoken Yomi much of a leader for months and is actually more useful as a sub nowadays. S/he’s in that tier of great-but-not-elite leaders along with Shiva, Ra, Bastet, Sakuya, et al., but has a lower return on investment due to poor resilience and damage output relative to the difficulty of use. It’s just a sad fact that leads like Yuna and DQXQ will do more damage with much less work. Yomi also got the short end of the awakening buff stick; killers paired with time extends would seem to be a great combination, but it’s ruined by the uselessness of the original Change the World active.
Runner Up: Gadius
1946 - Red Dragonbound, Gadius The lack of skill boosts and SBRs make him extremely difficult to utilize as a leader and his types generally preclude him from most fire teams. He’s just fortunate that he’s a perfect fit for Xiang Mei. I guess it’s a testament to the voting that something like Gadius would be considered among the “worst”.

Most Underrated

Winner: Raphael
626 - Raphael It’s surprising how one of the worst cards in the game suddenly became one of the best. Even after his uuevo buffs, Raphael didn’t have a true home. Then Saria-Thor started to catch on. Then the floodgates opened with leaders like Lightning, Superman, Awoken DQXQ, MZeus, and now Xiu Min, all who make great use of all of his abilities. To think that a card of this caliber is on the bubble (and could possibly fall off depending on the official results).
Runner Up: Haku
753 - Incarnation of Byakko, Haku Considering 7th and 25th were separated by nine votes, it’s fairly difficult to consider anything underrated so I’m basically just going by feel here. Considering Akechi has already been used, I’ll opt for the next best thing in Haku. Like Raphael, she’s on the bubble and in peril of not making it depending on the official results. The Chinese in general have been losing steam; similar to DKali, all of the alternatives make them less special. Haku in particular has seen her territory enchroached upon, with Armored Batman, Cecil and uevo Zuoh all presenting superior alternatives for certain situations. However, none of them have the flexibility of Haku who now has three relevant forms which are all great on a myriad of teams. She’s no longer the ace she once was, but people shouldn’t forget how good she is.

Biggest Surprise

Winner: Scheat
2564 - Scheat I’m not necessarily surprised that Scheat made it — after all, Kaede made it last time for almost no reason at all — what surprises me is that she clocked in at #3 and pretty much stayed there the entire time. I have a hard time believing relatively difficult to acquire leads Rukia and You Yu would boost her numbers to this extent, but I guess that’s the power of hype; much to GungHo’s satisfaction, I’d assume. Personally, I’d rather have Hermes despite his significantly lower damage as he fits on a wider array of teams and is much easier to obtain.
Runner Up: Skuld
1673 - The Norn Skuld The close voting continues to make things difficult to choose. I really wanted to deviate from picking another “cute, blue, 6-star GFE”, but nothing else really qualified as surprising to me. I guess what’s surprising is that the players would vote four total water 6-stars into the PCGF. Out of all the female water 6-stars, Skuld probably has the least overall impact, but once she gets her buffs she’ll be a solid leader and was always a great sub.

Most Overrated

Winner: Eschamali
2591 - Eschamali Eschamali is undoubtedly good, but not over-100-votes-over-DKali good. Her prime passed when farming Arena 1 with Yomi Dragon stopped being the definition of the endgame. Now her major role as a sub is on Lucifer who can function quite well without her. This feels like a bunch of Yomi Dragon owners with buyer’s remorse doubling down on their mistake.
Runner Up: ROdin
1107 - Phantom God, Odin The only reason ROdin is here instead of in the “worst monster” category is because the degree that he’s overrated eclipses how generally poor he is. ROdin has always been relegated to niche uses, mainly as one of the few decent fire poisoners and as a critical cog on push button teams (I guess he could be used as a ghetto leader, too). However, both roles will be severely diminished due to skill inheritance reaching NA soon. So what we’re left with is an extremely rare card that will troll a handful of unfortunate players and will make that one whale extremely happy.

Biggest Snub

Winner: Fire
1065 - Yamato Takeru Picking the snubs was quite difficult as there were many possible candidates, but nothing stood out. So instead of wasting time deliberating each choice, I’m going with groups of cards instead. The most alarming thing about the voting results was that outside Shiva, no general use fire cards were voted in. ROdin is ROdin and Gadius and Uriel were voted in pretty much on the back of Xiang Mei hype. This means fire stalwarts such as Cao Cao, Yamato Takeru, Ares, and Sanada Yukimura were all left out. I guess this makes sense as Xiang Mei is really the only fire team currently recognized by the JP tier lists, but there’s much more to the game than a few websites’ opinions on clearing endgame content.
Runner Up: Greek Pantheon
573 - Apollo The Greek pantheon is one of the overall best in the game and it’s a shame that none of them got voted in, especially at the expense of so many 6-stars that nobody is going to roll anyways. Just going over the 6-stars that made it, I’d take Persephone over Eschamali, Hermes over Scheat, Apollo over Ilm, and Ares over ROdin just from a value standpoint. At least one of their three forms will do work for you.

P.S. W O O D S U C K S

62 thoughts on “Thoughts on the Tentative PCGF Voting Results (Spring 2016)

  1. Nice post!

    I am also sad that none of the greek got voted in. I also think a bunch of cards got overrated: namely ROdin (most people and I certainly will not be able to find a use for this guy) and Scheat (in the sense that she got 3rd place right at Day 1 – she is still awesome).

    As someone who was watching the votes from day 1, I can say a few things.

    Haku was pretty high since the start (at around 30 votes higher than the last six or so (which were at 30 votes). And then a bunch of people waited until last minute (2nd last day or so) thinking that their vote would mainly affect the last six spots (and they were oh so wrong). It became a bloodbath in the last 15 spots or so that even Haku got kicked out of the 25 spots. Thankfully, it turned out the way it did.

    Oh and on that note, Raph was always hanging around last place, so yeah he was totally underrated.


    • I didn’t watch the results closely, but I did notice Haku dropping pretty far. It’d be a shame if she had fallen out; I can’t remember a PCGF on NA or JP that didn’t have her.

      Liked by 1 person

      • I can say that I’m slightly disappointed Shiva made it in- not that he’s a bad card, mind you, but that I’d much rather have Ares or Sanada. I’m rather disgusted by Gadius making it in, because he’s butt ugly and almost as useless. Everything else I’m pretty happy with, especially that I&I just baaarely squeaked in at the very end. I think overall results were pretty good.


        • Yeah, I’m not that happy about Shiva either, but I understand that he pretty much validates any player’s fire box so I can see why people might want him.

          The Xiang Mei and You Yu subs making it was inevitable. It’s been a while since I’ve seen so many questions about leaders that have so few sub options, Xiang Mei in particular. Really reminds me of when Ra and Yomi Dragon were hot.


  2. I really wished that Yamato or Sanada made it, they are so good on almost any fire team.. would love them on my shiva dragon team


    • I can see Yamato having uses in push button inheritance, too. Tengu is the typical target, but being fire with 3 rows make Yamato a legit contender, too.


  3. I wish Zuoh made it in over Haku. May be biased, but at least Zuoh doesn’t have as much of a replacement on a Pandora team due to the usual contenders on the team. Even Haku can replaced with Eschamali on the other dark teams.

    But I’m just biased and wanted the SBR.


    • I totally understand. Like I said, there are plenty of other options that fit a specific situation better — in other words, they have a higher ceiling — but in general none of them will have higher all around value for an average player than Haku.


  4. As much as I agree with everything you mentioned, I feel as if a less diversity of monsters were really overall mentioned due to more monsters to vote overall and more restrictions Top 25 vs 30. Still, though yes, the voting was well done, I do have to say that I’m genuinely surprised with the results, heres why
    1. 3 Kingdoms- I can understand why DQXQ made the cut, but considering that DQXQ got an awoken evolution, it’s only natural for the rest of the pantheon to follow suit. Yet the rest of the said pantheon was excluded. LuBu is about to get a buff to 3x and who knows how powerful Awoken Cao Cao, Sun Quan and Liu Bei will be.
    2. LKali- I honestly thought that she would really only have a 50-50 chance of making it in, and was expecting her to be kicked out completely as the voting drew close to an end. As powerful as LKali is and will be after her leader skill buff, she kind of fell out due to powercreep. Though that doesn’t keep me speculating about maybe an Uevo or awoken form for her in the future.
    3. Shiva vs Lakshmi- Shiva got 321 votes while Lakshmi got 25 votes. Unbelievable. This has only fueled my hate for Shiva even more.
    4. Norse- The only Norse god which made the cut was I&I, and in my opinion, the whole pantheon is powerful to no hell, and a 2 turn boost has endless applications, and 2x is more than enough for a lot of situations.


    • 1. I agree, but I can only reasonably expect the voters to know what is already out on JP, not speculate about what may or may not come in a reasonable amount of time. Here’s hoping more 3Ks get announced this weekend, though. I’m hoping Awoken Liu Bei can save wood once again.

      2. Yeah… I was on the fence about LKali, but feel she’s still usable on enough teams and a good enough leader to warrant her place.

      3. I gave up the Lakshmi crusade ages ago. It feels like she never did nor ever will get her due respect, probably because she’s easy to dismiss due to a “bad” active and awakenings.

      4. The Norse are quite good, especially now that their two original uevos are usable as subs as well. I’m surprised neither Saria or Thor were even close to making it. Which is somewhat alarming because if you wanted to make a tank team, either of those would be much easier to acquire than the 6-star Ryune.


  5. I voted for Raph, particularly because of Thoria and MZeus, but on my other FB, I went for Loki, since he is great in Panda and Luci teams, as well as on quite a few other teams. However, I feel like scrubs and whales had a pretty heavy hand in the votes, with Eschamali getting so many votes, shiva making it, and bastet being so close, and as you mentioned, ROdin being so high up. Overall, I’m pretty excited to roll, since it includes a lot of cards I want, as well as some dupes I wouldn’t mind getting. Great post as always, and fingers crossed for 4x GFE.


    • Yo Henry you comment on every setsu post and very tylerpad video. You have to take a break man. Go talk to your family or something.


  6. This whole post I have to agree for sure. The biggest snubs portion was well said, I’d only hope that you mention about hero gods outside of Pandora because they are immensly useful. Then again, fire with its big releases just got whacked aside like a fly trying to find its home.

    There was a reddit post of an analysis on Rodin and I felt as if he was praising him way too much. Didn’t even go over the downsides of Rodin outside of farming. The exact same thing goes for Eschamali: I understand that a lot of players like her for those sexy 7 orb enhances, but she really has lost a lot of usage on better teams designed for end-game.

    Then comes in those players in different groups I talk with and they keep saying on how Rodin’s great for farming, for poison, for those rows, skill boost, etc. Ugh. Please think about voting for monsters outside from daily farming for once on a PCGF, thank you very much.


    • I agree with the Heroes being underrated. I think many people will regret not having Wukong in the coming months.

      I think the real problem with ROdin is that he’s a 6-star. If you’re going to dilute the field with a 6-star, it should be something with high impact like DKali, not something that is easily replaceable even if it is slightly inconvenient to do so.


      • Heroes just received their heart enhancing buff in EU too (presumably this means we will get it in NA as well), which increases their value even higher. For people that seem to be eyeing the JP tier lists and upcoming things, missing this sort of value inflation seems a bit confusing.


  7. Dumb question, but to clarify about the ‘slated for horrible rates’ part. Do you mean because there will be less featured gods than normal PCGF (25 instead of 30), or that there are less featured gods in this PCGF than a normal godfests?


    • It means both. I don’t think we’ll never know the exact rates, but the leading theory is more featured gods = better EV. Whether it be a normal godfest or a PCGF, I’m just assuming the base rates are the same or similar enough to be negligible. Which I guess is a fairly large assumption, but what I’ve seen from past recorded roll data, I don’t have a strong reason to believe otherwise.


  8. The real shocker was Fenrir at #40, ahead of many, many viable gods. Are some people actually anticipating jammer meta?

    My Rodin dupes have sped up farming for tama/predra, that’s for sure.There may be better 6* monsters, but you still can’t knock it too much. I guess there are people who still want it for that purpose. * shrugs *


    • Yeah, I don’t know what was up with Fenrir. Maybe a failed troll?

      ROdin isn’t even great for Tama or PreDRA farming since you have to move orbs in addition to a two-part animation (nuke + poison). Darkseid is both farmable and significantly faster due to only having a one-part animation (true damage only). For situations where you need more skill boosts, inheriting something like Ra onto Tengu or Yamato is generally better.


      • In a certain group on Facebook, there has been quite a lot of love for the jammer meta. A lot. And it shocks me too because greater gods like Lakshmi/Parvati have greater versatility and fun, though they’re on the short end of the stick and perhaps underrated/outclassed.

        I guess people decided that a fat MP dog that boasts 625x damage is awesome for getting yourself killed simply because of fucking up your board and seriously trash ass recovery really dosen’t get you anywhere in the late-game dungeons.


      • Re: Tengu, can you inherit skills onto farmables?

        Ra skillups are rare, and Darkseid is part of a collab., so those options are right out for me, sadly. (Though if Medjedra is decent enough with TamadRA…)

        I concur on how fantastic Yamato is.


        • You can inherit (transfer) onto anything. The inherited (assist) skill needs to be REM + all the other requirements.

          If DC ever comes back I’m sure a few (degenerate) people will be farming and skilling multiple Darkseids. Just for that fraction of a second benefit per each skill use. I know I will. It was a bit sad they didn’t bring back the DC dungeon with BvS, but I guess the game couldn’t handle two Lex Luthors dropping at once.


  9. Hey Setsu, I thought of something pretty ludicrous, but I would like you to hear me out.

    While Rukia and You Yu are optimal leaders who take advantage of scheat’s prongs, would using Skuld as a leader be almost as competent for most descends? A friend of mine has two scheats and I tried convincing them (he/she) as they want to use the scheats for their purpose. They own an i&i as well, but I thought a skuld would be more fun for them to run.


  10. Just realized that bastet got kicked out, which thank god. 8 of us have it in our school, with only 1 kid who doesn’t.
    ALSO only realised after that P.S. that the only wood card there is Susano’o, who probably isn’t even there because wood, rather than an amazing shield.

    Thoughts on op af Liu Bei?(definitely not dreaming of what to do with my 3 liu beis…) Typing is most likely god/dragon, and wood/wood. I think that it’ll be a typing multiplier 3x/3.5x buffing them with an HP multiplier, and RCV multiplier above an HP threshold, with the linked orbs deal(insanely OP?). Active converts darks, hearts -> wood, jammers and poisons to hearts (now I’m out of my mind), recover 30% HP.

    Right now I’m 100% OK with liu bei > 4 gentlemen, since Wood dragon was gimped, and wood received no gentlemen. ATM I see no other hopes of wood getting a good card, apart from an MP card


    • Yeah, I don’t even consider Susano a wood card anymore.

      No clue what they’re going to do with Liu Bei. If he’s at least on par with DQXQ, I’ll be satisfied.


  11. I am very disappointed in the fact that Red Odin got voted in. Again. Seriously? If I roll Red Odin #2 he’s becoming 50,000 MP without regret. I don’t use my Red Odin #1 even.

    I was thinking about Eschemali and for all the hype she received her heyday has passed unusually quickly. Perhaps this will be revived with upcoming dark cards, whether it’s buffs to existing cards or new REM cards? We’ll see about that I guess.

    I definitely agree with your opinion on the Greco-Roman 2 pantheon being the biggest vote snubs. They might not be the best of leaders, and as subs they might feel vanilla, but that’s what I personally like about them. They’re simple. They’re straightforward. No gimmicks. Double orb changer and lots of OE. “Brevity is the soul of wit” they say and the GR2 pantheons to me are plain and all the more effective because of it. As leaders I don’t think they’ll ever be up to par except as a fun side-project but as subs they might not be shiny but they do what they do very well. In my opinion anyways.

    And why no Heroes either except for like, Pandora lol. They’re also a solid pantheon. Not shiny but again, effective at the things they specialize in. But that might be my bias on my part, considering Andromeda and Tomato and Wukong continue to elude me and instead I have 2 Perseus and 3 Pandora.

    My ultimate reflection on this PCGF is: “Damn this is the strangest lineup I’ve ever seen”.

    Scheat was a huge surprise for me as well. I’m not happy about all the 6* GFEs in it and with the only two cards I hugely desire being Haku and Akechi, and Loki not even making it in, I can’t justify rolling on it anymore, despite having a huge stone backlog. I might roll four or five times but beyond that…I just don’t know. Of course if it’s Light Gala instead of the Gala of Tears, I’ll be tempted more…


    • I’d imagine they’ll make Eschamali relevant again, one way or another.

      It’s fairly certain that they’ll make it a light gala so they can introduce the new jewel princess. It’s unlikely they’re stupid enough to ruin their PCGF with a wood gala.


  12. Am I the only one here who doesn’t think Eschamali isn’t overrated?

    I believe Eschamali is solid on any mono dark team, even on A.Panda despite Esch not having devil type. Majority of A.Panda subs have no OE. I have Armored Batman, DHaku, Akechi, Hanzo, Pandora, Halloween Vamp, Zuoh. I have tried all sorts of combination, but somehow I still get the most damage overall with Esch in the team. I would average 1.5x – 1.7x extra multiplier with just 2-3 +dark because of all that OE (Esch also guarantees +dark drops). Esch herself may not get the devil-type bonus, but she buffs everyone else in the team and that dark skyfall is absolutely helpful in such a hungry orb team.


    • “Solid”. That’s a pretty good start to describe something overrated.

      The argument isn’t that she’s bad or isn’t useful, it’s that the amount of votes she received is disproportionate to how good she actually is. We wouldn’t even be having this discussion if she was in the middle of the pack in voting. With all the killers floating around nowadays, the damage bonus from a few OEs doesn’t even compare and the monsters they come on are much easier to acquire than a 6-star GFE. DKali only gets a pass from being overrated since she’s still irreplaceable at what she does and fulfills a critical role on so many more teams.

      Your damage comparison really doesn’t mean much since we aren’t told the circumstances under which it occurred. Basically, if you say “I get the most damage using Eschamali” I would respond with “prove it to me, and even if it’s true, can you truly say what you gained over her replacement justifies her 6-star status and the votes she got over DKali?”.


      • Anyways, reviews are opinions and opinions are subjective. We can disagree all day and it doesn’t matter. Results says people want Esch over DKali. Who’s better and deserves more vote? Depends at what perspective you’re looking at it. DKali is indeed critical in those teams that need her and I don’t disagree with you on that. My point is it’s easier to slap in Esch in most Dark teams vs DKali. It’s PCGF so it’s mostly about voting and not everyone who plays the game are whales or elitists who’s looking to get multiple DKali for RaDra and whatnot. Esch topping DKali is no surprise to me.

        Again, using A.Panda as an example, I can have a somewhat ideal combinations of Akechi/Batman/Zuoh/Panda subs based on Game8, GameWith, AppMedia (I don’t have Claire). For this example, I’m replacing UPanda with Esch.

        Using Akechi to get an 8 +orb match, I get 1.48x vs 1.99x with Esch. Esch herself does not get the 1.56x from devil typing, but she gives extra to everyone else. In both cases, I got two other non-dark combos for a total of 3 combos. The damage of a max A.Panda went from 569K to 730K, which is an increase of 28%. That’s with Akechi giving +orb. Of course there are other variables, yada yada yada, but simply speaking all that OE bonus to the entire team outweighs

        hyper A.Panda damage with 2 non-dark match + 8 dark orb match (3 combo total).

        No OE + 14 rows = 399K
        All OE (1.48x) + 14 rows = 569K (43% increase from 399K)

        with Esch
        2 OE (1.51x) + 12 Rows = 553K (38% increase from 399K)
        5 OE (1.75x) + 12 rows = 643K (61% increase from 399K
        8 OE (1.99x) + 12 rows = 730K (28% increase from 569K vs Akechi)

        The biggest benefit for Esch is that all dark orb drops are +dark so there’s huge increase even without Akechi and having just 2 OE with the row. If you can convince me that her overall benefit to the team is outweighted by a single devil card sub without you arguing that she’s 6* GFE and shouldnt outvote DKali, then I will switch her out immediately.


        • I still think you’re either misdirecting your argument or that you’re misunderstanding what the term overrated means, or at the very least what it’s being used for in my post. The argument isn’t whether she’s good — I already conceded that she was great in the original post — or if she’s popular — I mean, that’s pretty self evident now — it’s whether the amount of votes she got is justified by her actual worth in-game. All you’ve presented is that a Pandora team does more damage with her vs. uuevo Pandora, but you don’t present any reasoning about whether she’s that much more valuable over all other reasonable/popular replacements. Just looking at Eschamali vs. uuevo Pandora alone, sure, you gain some damage, but you also lose a decent amount of HP, a lot of RCV, 2 time extends, and 1 skill boost, among other things. The actual stance on what is better of the two options doesn’t really matter as it’s largely situational and subjective as to which aspects are better when and you can even use both on the same team if you wanted; what matters is that the replacements are close enough to make Eschamali non-essential.

          If you were to take the voting literally, Eschamali should be 3x better than Pandora which obviously isn’t the case. This is admittedly poor logic since many other factors besides “who is better” play a role in who votes for what, but it can still be used to support my statement that Eschamali is overrated in the voting as the voting gap makes little sense from the respect of in-game power which is my entire point.

          DKali is a coveted sub on just about every color/combo team in the game. I don’t think you can reasonably argue Eschamali has a wider array of teams to easily fit on.

          I don’t care if you use Eschamali or not. If she works for you, that’s perfectly fine. Again, the argument is that she’s overrated.

          The fact that she’s a 6-star is critical to my argument as every 6-star that is added to the PCGF pool lowers the chance of pulling a featured god. If I was trying to maximize the average player’s value, I’d say absolutely no 6-stars should make the final list. If the 8 6-stars voted in were instead 5-stars, you’d a better chance of rolling a featured god by several % per pull. I was arguing that DKali is the only 6-star that barely justifies inclusion because what she brings is irreplaceable on one of the best teams in the game while also being coveted on a wide array of teams.


          • “actual worth in-game” Like I said, it depends at what angle you look at it.

            “you also lose a decent amount of HP, a lot of RCV, 2 time extends, and 1 skill boost, among other things” and that’s what I meant when I said yada yada yada . The Pandora is just an example. Point is she can still fit despite being off type. She’s even better when she is on-type.

            “[DKali] is irreplaceable on one of the best teams in the game while also being coveted on a wide array of team” — perhaps I should ask for you to be more specific which teams include that “wide array of teams”. Radra is more catered toward whales and elites. Need at least 2 DKali for Radra, even some whales have no luck with that.

            In terms of “irreplaceability” in those teams that absolutely need her, yes DKali wins over Esch, and I don’t disagree with that. I totally see your point in that. In terms of overall usability in most dark teams even if someone is just starting and/or have no intention of being a whale or elite, Esch is worthwile to have.


            • You still fail to address the main point of how much better Eschamali is than most reasonable replacements and whether that justifies garnering about 3x the votes of most of the chosen cards. Your “yada yada yada” is the essence of my point which you’d obviously rather ignore. I never said she should couldn’t fit despite being off type. I never said she wasn’t amazing. However, there are more things to consider in this game than just damage and it’s not like dark has a shortage of damage dealing subs especially with how accessible killer awakenings are in the color. There’s not much point in continuing the discussion unless you answer my main point as everything else seems to just be serving as a distraction.

              I’d love to answer your requests about DKali, but I’d respectfully ask you answer the question I’ve been asking since the beginning first (although I thought I already answered it with “just about every color/combo team in the game”). At this point I feel like this DKali thing is just a distraction from the main point when I only intended to use her has an easy point of reference.


          • Wait what? Why are you bringing up the total votes ie 3x compared to this monster or that? Didn’t you yourself say that is poor logic? =o

            Anyways, I said yada yada yada as a preemptive to you most likely looking for other things to support your point that this or that sub will be better than Esch such as time extend, and whatever other stats you mentioned. I did think of those and considered it in my earlier analysis. I also just randomly selected UPanda, but the example can still apply even if I took out Zuoh, Batman, or other subs. My here point is that she competes despite being off-type. Being on-type for other teams means she deserves a team spot even more.

            The point of the game is mostly damage. This game mostly favors high damage. Oh look, killer awakening, that’s awesome. Oh look, double or triple two-prongs, that’s awesome. Why? Because damage. Row, 5 orb + oe, combo, two-prong, whatever synergy. Purpose? More damage. Just need enough tankiness to survive unavoidable hits and mechanics. That is one reason why we don’t see 16x hp or 16x rcv. DKali is irreplaceable in rainbow/combo teams because she is the best to trigger those insane damage multipliers. Esch clears jammer and poison orbs, which is usually the point of board resets (for DKali, +easier trigger as mentioned).

            I do not disagree that DKali is the best at what she does. My point is DKali is more specific while Esch is more of overall good that can fit in more situations than DKali, hence one of many reasons getting the top vote. I used A.Panda team just as an example.

            Going a little offroad and reading your comment about Scheat making it a surprise top 3, you said “Personally, I’d rather have Hermes despite his significantly lower damage as he fits on a wider array of teams and is much easier to obtain.” Esch is definitely hard to obtain and your main point being whether she is worth getting given the 6* GFE rating. DKali does murder her competing substitutes (like chocobo). Eschamali doesn’t really murder them quite as much, but she kills many of them even in off-type situations. She fits on a wider array of team because OE works with dark combo/tpa, 5 +oe, and row teams. There are more of those teams than rainbow teams. That’s my point.

            Like I said and will say for the 3rd time, it all depends on perspective as to what “worth” is. I should’ve closed with that. Think of random dark cards as leads and see whether DKali or Esch would fit better. I believe that Esch at least deserves the top 3 spot and she has her right to reasonably get more votes than DKali.


            • Google definition of overrated: “have a higher opinion of (someone or something) than is deserved.” By definition, even something amazing can be overrated, including both Eschamali and DKali or anything else for that matter.

              I said the difference in the number of votes is not a good metric to determine how much better something is than something else, but it is a valid metric to determine if something is overrated. In other words, are either DKali or Eschamali 3x more deserving than everything else? By this metric, I would say DKali is overrated too, but she gets a slight pass because she’s less replaceable.

              Who is better between Eschamali vs. DKali isn’t the point I was pursuing. What matters to me is their value over average replacement which, for me, is a good way to determine how deserving they are. Eschamali has plenty of comparable replacements who many not contribute as much damage in certain situations, but also have attributes to help bridge that gap if not fill it outright. DKali kind of has some replacements now, but she’s less replaceable on more teams that matter.

              Yes, damage matters a great deal, but there is more to the game than straight theorycrafted damage. In the specific comparison of uuevo Pandora — which I only used because that’s the pair you originally picked, in reality any other decent dark sub would’ve sufficed as a comparison — are you not going to factor in the extra damage from extra combos the time extends enable? Pandora aside, there are cards that can fill in and offer utility and other sources of damage that need to be factored. Of course it’s hard to quantify and compare, but that doesn’t mean you can ignore it.

              “Think of random dark cards as leads and see whether DKali or Esch would fit better.”
              I don’t know what world you live in where DKali is considered a dark card. She’s a rainbow card and can contribute on any color/combo team.

              Just from my JP aggregate list, she fits on Ra Dragon, Sherias Roots, Sephiroth, Yuna, Anubis, and Sakuya. Eschamali has a similar sized list in Lucifer, Pandora, Yomi Dragon, Persephone, and Machine Hera, but I’d argue that DKali is better overall. Also considering that Eschamali’s top 2 leads are row based and often need 2/3 row matches to maximize damage, the value of the OEs drops off compared to when only 1 row match is in the equation. Not only do the row awakenings start to contribute more damage overall, but the enhanced orbs lose effectiveness as they are spread across multiple combos.

              If we extend to AppMedia’s lower tiers, DKali gains Ra, Ichigo, Lightning, LKali, Gran Reverse, Horus, Hathor, HKali, and Vegeto. Eschamali gains Yomi, Zaerog and herself. I’m not going to say tier lists are absolute or that all these choices are amazing ones, but I do think this is a decent representation of how many teams DKali can competently sub on for the average player.

              Anyways, at the very least, now I have an idea where you stand so I don’t really think there’s too much discuss unless you want to add anything. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe your stance is “Eschamali contributes so much damage for so many teams that I don’t think she’s overrated”. We obviously disagree, but I can live with that now that (I think) I know what your opinion is.


          • “the value of the OEs drops off compared to when only 1 row match is in the equation. Not only do the row awakenings start to contribute more damage overall, but the enhanced orbs lose effectiveness as they are spread across multiple combos”. OE does fall off the more OE is stacked. The same can be said though when stacking just rows. Best damage would be a balance between the two. Not necessarily a 1:1 balance, but maybe like 5 OE for guaranteed +orb and the rest are rows.

            Here’s my initial test team with 14 rows. Again with the Panda.

            A.Panda/Akechi/Batman/Zuoh/UPanda/ hyper A.Panda friend

            Hyper A.Panda damage with 2 non-dark match + 8 dark orb match (3 combo total).
            0 OE + 14 rows = 399K
            8 OE (1.48x) + 14 rows = 569K (43% increase from 399K using Akechi)

            with Esch replacing UPanda
            2 OE (1.51x) + 12 rows = 553K (38% increase from 399K)
            5 OE (1.75x) + 12 rows = 643K (61% increase from 399K)
            8 OE (1.99x) + 12 rows = 730K (83% increase from 399K or 28% increase from 569K vs Akechi)


            ‘“Think of random dark cards as leads and see whether DKali or Esch would fit better.”
            I don’t know what world you live in where DKali is considered a dark card. She’s a rainbow card and can contribute on any color/combo team.’ Good catch. I meant compare dark card leads (Esch) vs rainbow/combo teams (DKali)😛 That’s quite a list and I forgot the recently buffed and newly released rainbow leads.

            Do you know how PadPlus comes up with the list? I’m curious if it’s all the players in JP.

            Yes, that is pretty much my stance. I think her spot being top vote is justifiable. She’ll most likely drop below DKali after this PCGF. By how much will depend on the meta and new cards in the next 6 months.


            • For the first point, I was referring to how enhanced orbs in general, regardless of the number of OE awakenings on the team, generally return less damage when the orbs themselves they are split over multiple matches rather than being a large, single one. So I was postulating that if you made multiple row matches instead of single one, that splitting the enhanced orbs over multiple matches would reduce their effectiveness. However, for this specific situation where we’re mixing a good number of row and OE awakenings, this isn’t always the case; there are some cases where you get less damage and some where you get more depending on how the orbs are distributed. So I’ll retract that statement as it applies here.

              Now that I have the time, I’ll do some damage calculations myself. I have no doubt that Eschamali adds quite a bit of damage on row teams — because as you said, having a mix of different enhances is generally better than stacking a single type, which I’ve already experienced firsthand on Lucifer and MHera teams I’ve run — but I’m not convinced by how much. I think it’s a mistake to not take the entire team damage into consideration since using only Pandora doesn’t factor the damage you lose from Eschamali.

              It looks like PADSpike ( has not updated in a while so it doesn’t have Batman, so I’ll instead use DValk in my calculations instead (it’s only really the relative damage that matters anyways).

              8-orb row, no enhanced: 1,706,275
              8-orb row, all enhanced: 2,525,400
              8-orb row, 6-orb row, no enhanced: 6,003,775
              8-orb row, 6-orb row, all enhanced: 8,570,200

              8-orb row, 5 enhanced: 2,559,594 (50% increase)
              8-orb row, all enhanced: 2,913,950 (70%/15% increase)
              8-orb row, 5 enhanced, 6-orb row, 3 enhanced: 8,435,363 (40% increase)
              8-orb row, 6-orb row, all enhanced: 9,652,694 (12% increase)

              So the numbers are a little worse than yours. And they’d obviously be a lot closer to yours if you lead with something that Eschamali qualifies for like Lucifer. Anywhere from a 12% to 70% increase depending on the situation is nice, but that’s basically what 1-3 off-color combos add to your overall damage. Of course, if you’re a wizard you can full combo a row board with minimal time extends, but Pandora’s two will make it a lot easier for the average player. That and other things will help bridge the gap. Then if you consider something like Lucifer who doesn’t supply his own TEs, the difference starts to look even better, especially when you get hit with a time reduction.

              This, of course is just using the PandoraEschamali swap and won’t be true for every swap, but I at least hope you can understand that even though a sub doesn’t bring straight damage, that there are things they can contribute to make up for it. In reality, how much would you be losing using something like any one of Persphone’s 3 forms on a given dark team vs. Eschamali, for non-row teams in particular (whom OEs pair with particularly well)? The fact that so many things can capably fill in for Eschamali and are so much easier to obtain (like, literally 3x easier) makes me think the way I do about this particular point.

              I believe Pad-Plus gets their data based on how many users are looking for that lead through their friend finder service for that given week. I don’t know the full details.

              On the contrary, I believe Eschamali has potential to be more in demand than DKali in the future. With all the DKali clones they keep pumping out, she only becomes less valuable. And someday Ra Dragon will lose his throne. Either way, it’s in GungHo’s best interest to keep both relevant as apparently that’s what sells the best.


            • Note: I’m writing this as someone who did not vote yet, and what my thought process would have been to select. My top contenders were Dkali, Eschmali, Scheat, and Susano’o.

              I’ll start with reasonings to vote for each one, starting from the end, to the beginning.

              I have no good shield, he has amazing utility, great colours, but I have kushi -> He’s not a top priority to get. With Skill Assists coming its way, there’s even less reason to get such an ability. Getting it does not make any team I have suddenly “viable” or “insanely” good, so he’s a no.

              I have no rukia. Scratch this. Getting Scheat would not make me want to immediately buy You Yu either, since I don’t have things like Orochi, Skuld, other good water subs.

              Would make my Luci team suddenly like 5x better. I have oku, haku, so rolling one would make me a Yomidra team, and further validate purchasing a Yomidra. If I was half brainless, I would immediately vote, however no akechi so it’s kind of a turn-off

              Wow I might be able to use Sakuya to some extent now. No kalis yet, but Dkali + Choco = ok ish. dqxq is getting awoken, might be able to fit there, but other than that, no real reason to vote.

              Looking at these points, I would say that I would want to get Eschmali. However looking back, I see that the reason why people would want eschmali is that she “validates”/”betters” solely BY HERSELF 2 ish teams. I would need 2 Dkali’s to maker her useful, or another lkali. From a strategic standpoint, because she fits on many dark teams and by herself can make it worth running them, that’s why she would get votes. However this in turn makes her very overrated.The only reason why I’d want Eschmali is so that it makes Yomidra worth it. Even then, the two are fairly mediocre and aren’t that “endgame” anymore. Point me at a video clearing the machine dungeons that uses the pair.

              If I had a Dkali, the overall quality of my box would rise dramatically. The next pulls that I get have a much higher chance of being useful. for example, when I just rolled sephiroth. Dkali is a CORE sub when it comes to clearing the machine zeus, EVEN THOUGH SHE DOES NOT GET THE FULL MULTIPLIER. Dkali is NOT overrated since she DOES point to endgame, and would improve the viablity of future rolls. A second dkali = buying radra. A lkali = use sakuya. Anubis = git gud & rek everything.
              While Eschmali may seem like the better option to get here, Dkali is by far much better in terms of fulfilling roles on a team and quality card.


      • Your criteria is different. Perhaps (aside from novelty) the monster with the most votes isn’t necessarily the one who is optimal in one area, but the one who gives the most mileage. I’m sure as hell not putting a Dkali on an A.DQXQ team, and I probably wouldn’t want it on a Hathor team either, but I’d slap an Escha on any dark team. It’s breadth, not depth.


        • DKali fits on more teams than Eschamali. If you had read the rest of the discussion you would’ve known that. You also would’ve known we resolved our differences.


  13. Has anyone run the numbers on the 10 stone GFE REM vs Godfest? The chance to pull from a specific pool of desired mobs seems worth paying a premium without considering MP.


  14. Good to see such a great analytic, yet humor-sprinkled post again on your blog. As you wrote in your break-posting you seem to have recognised it yourself: The game and the blog didn’t seem fun for you anymore and postings started to become kinda dry😦 I can see some fun in what you are doing here in this posting again🙂


    • I’m glad you liked the post. Since I’m posting less often (and I don’t see that changing anytime soon) I’ll probably start being more picky about what I actually post about. Hopefully that means the post quality improves.

      Liked by 1 person

  15. Only card I really want about is Eschamali, so I’m torn about buying a pack here or not. I have (multiples of) most of the featured gods, with Rodin, Ryune, Uriel, and Orochi being the only other cards I’m remotely interested in, and Ilm/Sakuya/Raphael being the only others that I don’t have.

    Overall seems like a pretty great PCGF, but as soon as I saw this lineup I rolled most of my remaining stones in FF, because nostalgia.

    Now, I just need to figure out some sweet Cecil and Lightning teams…might be time to finally skill Z8 T__T

    Plus, PAD Academy is coming soon, and I gotta light my money on fire trying to get Athena again, and I don’t know that I wanna go back down the rabbit hole of buying multiple packs back-to-back….


    • It might be easier to decide to roll in the PCGF once they announce whether it’s 4x. That will have a huge influence on how good the REM really is.

      Yeah, I’m going to try my best to save up for PAD Academy. The goal is to get another Athena so I can have all 4 forms and hopefully in the process land everything else. I’m hoping to not roll the standard REM until we get all the new gala exclusives, GFEs and hopefully a new pantheon. I’m thankful that none of the new GFEs are yet on the level DKali or Eschamali reached so I can pretty much pass on them.


      • Oh, good point. 4x would definitely be a lot more tempting. Fingers crossed!

        I’ll probably either give the Academy REM a pack or at least roll until I have all of the silvers – hopefully it takes pity on me since I rolled that stupid thing SO much last time and didn’t get a single on-theme card😦


  16. Thanks for the great post! I was happiest to see Orochi make it in considering literally every team can use him through inheritance.


  17. I think you’re underestimating how popular You Yu’s going to be when he hits, which is why Scheat/Skuld were voted for in such high numbers. Unlike Nepdra, You Yu’s subpool is the deepest out of the four gentlemen. Also, skill inheritance means whether you run Scheat or Hermes on your team, you’re going to want a Scheat active in there somewhere.


    • I already equated Scheat’s popularity to You Yu so I don’t really see what you’re trying to say? The surprise was more along the lines of (1) Scheat goes from being unwanted to very desired and (2) there are enough informed people that voted for her to get her that high.

      You’re just wrong about Neptune Dragon. Since he’s the only MP Dragon that doesn’t require god type for his ATK bonus, he was by far the most flexible and water has no end of water row subs.


Comments are closed.